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> Seventh Day
Adventism

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

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08-10-2009

#1

jaman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

In the second century A.D.,
proof that the Jews were still keeping the seventh day
Sabbath according to the lunar week can be found in the writings of
Clement of Alexandria (circa 150-215 A.D.):

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

"And
that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though
not in the same way, he [St. Peter] will infer thus:

Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that
they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and
archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not
visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first;
nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread,
nor the feast, nor the great day."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

The
Fourth Commandment. ………………..

"And in periods of seven days the moon undergoes its
changes. In the first week she becomes half moon; in the second,
full moon; and in the third, in her wane, again half moon; and in
the fourth she disappears. Further, as Seleucus the mathematician
lays down, she has seven phases. First, from being invisible she
becomes crescent-shaped, then half moon, then gibbous and full;
and in her wane again gibbous, and in like manner half moon and
crescent-shaped."

This is about as plain as it
can get.
In Clement’s day, each and every month and every
lunar week (as kept by the Jews) was still tied to the moon’s
phases and, by extension, the weekly Sabbath was also still
tied to the
moon!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interestingly
enough the same website also gives us this:-

Quote:

Origin of the sabbath

The
Sabbath is first met with in connection with the fall of the
manna
(Exodus 16:22 sqq.), but it there appears as an institution already known
to the Israelites. The Sinaitic legislation therefore only gave the force
of law to an existing custom. The origin of this custom is involved
in obscurity. It was not borrowed from the Egyptians, as the week of
seven days closing with a day of rest was unknown to them. In recent
years a Babylonian origin has been advocated. A lexicographical tablet
gives shabattu as the equivalent of um nuh libbi, "the
day of the appeasement of the heart" (of the gods). Furthermore, a
religious calendar of the intercalary month Elul and of the month
Marchesvan mentions the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, and 19th days, the
latter probably because it was the 49th (7x7) day from the beginning
of the preceding month, as days on which the king, the magician, and
the physician were to abstain from certain acts. The king, for
instance, was not to eat food prepared with fire, put on bright
garments, ride in a chariot, or exercise acts of authority. These
days were then, days of propitiation, and therefore shabattu
days. We have thus periods of seven days the last day of which is
marked by abstention from certain actions, and called
shabattu, in other words the equivalent of the Sabbath. A
Babylonian origin is not in itself improbable, since Chaldea was
the original home of the Hebrews, but there is no proof
that such is actually the case. The reading shabattu is
uncertain, shapattu being at lest equally probable. Besides,
there is no evidence that these days were called shabattu;
the signs so read are found affixed only to the 15th day of the
month, where, however, sha patti, "division" of the month is
the more probable reading. These days, moreover, differed entirely
from the Sabbath. They were not days of general rest, business being
transacted as on other days. The abstention from certain acts had
for object to appease the anger
of the gods; the days were, therefore, days of penance, not of
joy
like the Sabbath. Lastly, these days followed the phases of the
moon, whereas the Sabbath was independent of them. Since the Sabbath
always appear as a weekly feast without connexion with the moon, it
cannot be derived, as is done by some writers, from the Babylonian feast of the full moon, or fifteenth day of the month,
which, moreover, has only doubtful claim to the designation shabattu.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm

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08-10-2009

#2

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

In the second century A.D.,
proof that the Jews were still keeping the seventh day
Sabbath according to the lunar week can be found in the writings of
Clement of Alexandria (circa 150-215 A.D.):

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

"And
that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though
not in the same way, he [St. Peter] will infer thus:

Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that
they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and
archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not
visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first;
nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread,
nor the feast, nor the great day."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

The
Fourth Commandment. ………………..

"And in periods of seven days the moon undergoes its
changes. In the first week she becomes half moon; in the second,
full moon; and in the third, in her wane, again half moon; and in
the fourth she disappears. Further, as Seleucus the mathematician
lays down, she has seven phases. First, from being invisible she
becomes crescent-shaped, then half moon, then gibbous and full;
and in her wane again gibbous, and in like manner half moon and
crescent-shaped."

This is about as plain as it
can get.
In Clement’s day, each and every month and every
lunar week (as kept by the Jews) was still tied to the moon’s
phases and, by extension, the weekly Sabbath was also still
tied to the moon!

Yes thanks...good
references.

There is no historical manuscript evidence for a
Sabbath before the Passover...
...it seems that a Sabbath dependant on
a lunar cycle was only then initiated by the Lord...
...and embedded in
the culture of Israel as one of the symbols of the Messiah...
...and
this cycle remained until about the second century AD.

The Saturday
and Sunday designations are never used in the canonical
manuscripts...
...even though the Julian calendar had been in force for
the Roman empire from about 50 BC.

The Roman Catholic church later
supported the Julian/Gregorian Sunday...
...but this day was not equal
to the 'first day of the week' of the New Testament...
...the
Seventh-day Adventist contention that the Julian/Gregorian Saturday is
equals to the Sabbath has no basis in scripture or any supportng
documents...
...and their idea that it will one day be some kind of
'test' has no foundation.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 08-10-2009 at 12:45
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08-10-2009

#3

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is 8:50 pm on the East coast of
Australia and the Moon is 98% full...
...so it will be completely
full by the time anyone in the America's and Britain see it
tonight.

Go out
and have a look at it tonight and remember what a full-Moon looks
like.

The Moon for April of 31 AD was in 'Waning Gibbous'
at the date demanded by the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is
the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22
1844 origin.

Saturday, April 28 shows only 85.21 %
illumination.
In a couple of days I will alert you to when the
Moon is in this phase.

If
you go out tonight you will see the moon as it would have
appeared...
...on the day SDA's suggest for the crucifixion in 31
AD.

It is obviously
not a full moon...
...and if your untrained eye can see it don't you
reckon first century Jews would have noticed the difference?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 08-10-2009 at 01:15
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10-09-2009

#4

Troubleshooter

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The idea that one day the Sabbath will be
some kind of 'test' has no foundation.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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10-09-2009

#5

Greg Goodchild

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Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 5,340

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The Sabbath has been a test in every
generation. To keep Sabbath, according to the Bible, is a testimony that
you are willing to worship the Creator of the universe. The Sabbath was a
test in Egypt where Moses was making the Israelites "rest" Sabbatize from
their labors. Exodus 5:5 It was a test for Israel in the worship of idols.
Israel worshipped the sun in Ezekiel 8:16. It was clearly stated that the
Sabbath was a test issue in Jeremiah 17:19-27 It was clearly stated that
Sabbath was a test of the sincerity of Israel coming back from the
Babylonian captivity in Nehemiah 13:15-21. Sabbath was a test for the Jews
in the time of Jesus. The leadership wanted to kill Jesus for His refusal
to observe Sabbath like they did. John 5, Matthew 12, John 9. The Jews
were willing to kill the Lord of the Sabbath. God says that this same
issue will come up again in the forced worship of Rev 13. The true worship
will be presented by God's people in Rev 14:7. God's true people will
worship Him as the Creator. The Sign of the Creator is the Sabbath. Exodus
31:12-17

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11-23-2009

#6

Troubleshooter

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Bump for Tree of Life...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed
Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to
the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William
Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis
for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite
calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each
month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

The
lunar year began with the month Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was
calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the
Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th
Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full
moon…
…this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly
Sabbath.

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a
Sabbath.

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a
Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only
group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the
basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844
origin.

The Karaite calendar is the only objective reason to
support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar
calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous
successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian
calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day
Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite
calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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11-23-2009

#7

Tree of Life ©

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One Seventh-day Adventist’s Point of
View

Dear
TroubleShooter,

Thanks for personally inviting me to this thread of yours!

You’ll find my
initial comments inserted in red font within your quoted post below.

Enjoy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

[All red edits added by Tree of Life
©]

William Miller originally believed Christ was crucified
in 33 AD…
…but
he changed his position to the 31 AD date prior to
1843/1844.

Question: Why did William Miller change his
mind?
Answer:
William Miller changed the basis for his calculations to a Karaite
luni-solar calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar calendar
every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath
day.

-
Very interesting!
If indeed that’s what William Miller did, then the choice of 457
B.C., as one among at least three options, is not resting squarely
upon 31 AD as is proposed in our SS Quarterly, but is presumably a
“best fit” option as perceived by William Miller at that time. To a
certain extent this option then seems based upon circular reasoning,
i.e. 457 BC depends upon 31 AD while 31 AD depends likewise upon 457
BC. (Cf. my PowerPoint presentation, slides #14-22, as currently
found at
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/4900DaysOfDaniel.ppt)

- Yet, in all honesty, we have to give a lot of credit to
William Miller and to our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers for
their honest pursuit of the truth as found in the Holy Scriptures –
which has definitely brought along many many rich blessings to this
little planet of ours. As no doubt all true “Bereans” among us know
by our own experience, arriving at the ultimate and most valuable
truths one has to begin one’s study somewhere and the route is
almost always quite a circuitous route, or isn’t that your
experience too? If you won’t seek, you won’t find will you? Deut
4:29; Prov 1:20-33; 8:17; Eccl 8:17; Jer 29:13; Hos 2:7; 5:6; Matt
7:7; Luke 11:9; 15:8; John 7:34, 36; Acts 17:27; Rev
3:20-22!

In the Karaite system, the months start with the first
appearance of the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation:
ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev
23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly
Sabbath…
…then
six work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day
of the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly
Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were
determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each
month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

- I
have yet to discover the proof for the Karaites now or ever
reckoning their weekly Shabbat from the New Moon Day... But then
this Lunar Sabbath argument is one I’ve not previously dug into. So
perhaps the proof is there? - Then again, I have been in touch with
today’s Karaites for quite some time without hearing or seeing
anything re Lunar based Shabbat keeping outside of the seven special
annual Shabbats that are tied to the three annual feasts that are
proclaimed by our Eternal God as special Feasts for each of His Sons
and Daughters to enjoy throughout eternity. Re “for ever” passages,
please cf. Exodus 12:14, 17, 24; 31:17; 32:13; Leviticus 16:29, 31;
23:14, 21, 31, 41; Deuteronomy 4:40; 5:29; 12:28; 28:46;
29:29!

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the
1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first sighting of the New
Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the
14th Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full
moon…
…this
was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly
Sabbath.

- Yes,
Deuteronomy 16:4 makes it quite clear that the Passover lamb was
being killed at the end of Aviv 14 (Passover) and the beginning of
Aviv 15 (1st Day of Unlevened Bread.)

So on the Karaite calendar every
Passover was a Sabbath.

- To
be precise, this statement is incorrect! Although it is true that
the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread is frequently being
referenced by the word Passover, Passover proper is only Aviv 14,
i.e. the day prior to the beginning of the Feast. It’s a preparation
day and not a Shabbat per se – unless it happens to coincide with a
weekly Shabbat!

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath
paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only group who support
the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic
scheme that establishes their October 22 1844
origin.

-
That may or may not
be true. But more importantly, as a true Seventh-day Adventist
believer I do not a priori base my beliefs upon any group of men,
whether or not such be Seventh-day Adventist. My creed is the Bible
and such other primary facts of creation as the Creator may provide
me from time to time. My creed may also be expressed in terms of
John Chapter 17 or even more specifically in terms of John
17:17.

-
That being the case
I do no longer support the 31 AD crucifixion date – The Lord has led
me onwards to higher ground with very much more exact dates for all
of these particular events and to even more striking fulfillments of
the prophecies provided us through Daniel. Cf. 1)
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm and
associated links, and 2)
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm, respectively! [Please, remove any spaces from those URLs!
I seem to be unable to do so...]

The Karaite calendar is the only
objective reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion
date.

The
Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not
coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly cycle of the
Julian/Gregorian calendars.

- As I said above, “I have yet to discover the
proof...”

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to
an origin calculated using the Karaite
calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month…

-
Ditto...

…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

- So far I’ve seen no evidence for the Julian/Gregorian
calendar being the origin of the seven day weekly cycle as we have
known it until it too was changed in many countries such that Monday
is now the 1st day of the week… Please cf. Daniel
7:25!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
©

Last edited by Tree of Life ©; 11-23-2009 at 03:34
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11-23-2009

#8

Brotherbrian

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Problems here are mainly that, to my
knowledge, Karaite Jews do not observe a "lunar sabbath". They observe the
same weekly sabbath of the regular jewish calendar. AFAIK, William Miller
basically used HIS idea of what karaite judaism was to justify 1844,
namely, the oversimplified idea that "Oh, karaites just hold everything a
month later than the traditional jewish calendar". Which is not the case.
in the 1800s, 1844 and beyond, karaites were observing the traditional
calendar of rabbinic judaism.

__________________
"It is an honor for a man to cease from
strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs
20:3

Shalom, amigos....
Brian

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11-24-2009

#9

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

Problems here are mainly that, to
my knowledge, Karaite Jews do not observe a "lunar sabbath".
They observe the same weekly sabbath of the regular jewish
calendar. AFAIK, William Miller basically used HIS idea of what
karaite judaism was to justify 1844, namely, the oversimplified idea
that "Oh, karaites just hold everything a month later than the
traditional jewish calendar". Which is not the case. in the 1800s,
1844 and beyond, karaites were observing the traditional calendar of
rabbinic judaism.

This was addressed
further down the thread...
...William Miller and Samuel Snow did not
calculate according to contemporary Karaite reckoning...
...who had in
the early 1800's also opted for a cyclical week...
...but by the
reckoning used by original Karaite Jews.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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11-30-2009

#10

Tree of Life ©

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Re the Basics of this Thread

Re
the Basics of this Thread

Dear
TroubleShooter,

I have a few questions for you re two of your posts
(as also quoted at the bottom of this post: )

1.
In your
first post below you are claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The weekly Sabbaths in the
Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New
Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

Where is your support for
this claim of yours?

2.

Then you conclude
the same post of yours by claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin
calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s
are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath
determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

3.
In
your second post below, you seem to be insinuating that the GC Committee
was in agreement with your above claims, or isn’t that implied by these
words of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It was not done in a
corner...
...and all the issues were well understood...
...and
the implications realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble
the church with it.

4.

Now, if that is true, and if I am not misreading you,
then…

What do you make of the following words of M. L. Andreasen?

- Isn’t it obvious that these words of M. L. Andreasen is making
it quite clear that the reckoning of lunar months “does not in any way
affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect
the sabbath?”

- And isn’t it quite obvious from the following
quoted words of his, that M. L. Andreasen is not at odds with anyone in
the Committee re this particular?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L., Objections…,
p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed scheme
[re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”] does not in any
way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does
not affect the sabbath…”

[Bracketed words added / Tree of
Life (c)]

Aren’t those words of
M. L. Andreasen quite at odds with your above insinuations, while clearly
indicating that no one in that Committee was ever even considering a thing
such as this construct called the “Lunar Sabbath
argument?”

5.

Please show me clearly where I am
missing something! I’ve read most of the Grace Amadon Collection documents
currently published at 4 Angel’s Publications. Yet, I have failed to find
anything of substance in support of this so called Lunar Sabbath
argument...

6.
Nevertheless, I am also seeing
that the GC Committee was suffering from confusion re a number of
particulars.

Perhaps, for the purposes of this thread, the most
important among those confusions of the Committee members is the obvious
discrepancy between Grace E. Amadon’s understanding, as expressed by the
following words as quoted by her, and between the very clear and obvious
meaning of the words themselves.

That is, from the context it is
clear that Grace E. Amadon and others in the Committee believed that Bliss
and the Millerites were reckoning Tishri 1, 1844 as beginning at sunset
October 12 and not “with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of
October…” as clearly stated by Bliss. The reasoning of the Committee seems
to be that each and all of the Feast Days were fixed once Nisan 1 was
determined (cf. her words in the remainder of this 3 page document of
hers: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bliss, The Advent Shield, January,
1845, p. 278-9 (as quoted by Amadon, Grace E., How The Millerites
Chose Oct. 22, p. 3
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/HowTheMilleritesChoseOct.pdf)

“Reckoning from this [Nisan]
moon, the seventh Jewish month commenced with the
appearance of the moon on the 13th of October; so that the
tenth day of the seventh month synchronized with the 22d of that
month.” –Bliss, The Advent Shield, January, 1845, p. 278.

“It is therefore evident that the seventh
month must have commenced with the new moon in October; and
that the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish Sacred year,
in A. D. 1844, could only synchronize with the 22d of that month.” –
Idem., p. 279.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

7.
Could it be
that this whole ‘Lunar Sabbath argument’ is derived from this very same
misunderstanding - re a relative fixing of the seven special Feast Days
within any given Karaite year - a misunderstanding evidently shared
generally among the GC Committee members?

I am
hoping you will help us all by shedding a little of your light upon these
issues. How do you perceive these items?

Peace over each family
and over each home that is honestly seeking for the realities of each
particular of importance,

Tree of Life
©

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally
believed Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his
position to the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why
did William Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller
changed the basis for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths
in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the
New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that
night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of
15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite
calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates for
Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day
Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion
date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that
establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite
calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD
crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly
cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly
cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay
claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose
weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a
weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

[Color emphasis added in both of these posts
/ Tree of Life (c)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That's a good summary
Pegg...
...the SDA church has known since at least
1938.

On November 7, 1938, the General Conference of
Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee to investigate
discrepancies in calendation.

The committee was comprised of
SDA luminaries...

The Chair was Elder L. E. Froom, Secretary
Dr. Lynn Harper Wood and committee members Dr. M. L. Andreasen,
Professor M. E. Kern, Professor W. Homer Teesdale, Professor Albert
W. Werline, Elder F. C. Gilbert and Miss Grace Amadon.

The
report was delivered July, 9, 1939...
...present were all the
General Conference members available, plus all the Union Presidents
in the U.S., Bible teachers, Ministers and many others...
...the
report started at 9:30 A.M. and the meeting ended about 10:00 P.M.

It was not done in a corner...
...and all
the issues were well understood...
...and the implications
realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble the church with
it.

Who would have thought it would come down
to...
...either the Sabbath...
...or the Sanctuary
doctrine.

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#11

Troubleshooter

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Question #1

All of your questions are answered elsewhere
in the thread or from links from within the thread...
...I will attempt
to reorganize them here for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToL

Re the Basics of this
Thread

Dear TroubleShooter,

I have a few questions for
you re two of your posts (as also quoted at the bottom of this post:
)

1. In your first post below you are claiming the following,
are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by
Troubleshooter

The weekly Sabbaths in the
Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the
New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

Where is your support for
this claim of yours?

There are
various sources...
...it is a fact of history that William Miller used
a Karaite calendar (as opposed to a Rabbinic) to determine the end of the
2300 day/year schema sometime in 1844.

William Miller first used a
contempory Karaite calendar to determine the Day of Atonement falling some
time in March of that year.

One of his colleagues Samuel Snow later
adjusted the day specifically to October 22 1844...
...he did this on
the basis of an old Karaite calendar determination of days...
...this
calendar used a Lunar determination of days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Miller_(preacher)
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/jews_and_sabbath.php

I
will answer each question in a separate post.

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#12

Troubleshooter

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Question #2

Quote:

2. Then you conclude the same post of yours by claiming
the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by
Troubleshooter

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an
origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly
Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a
weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

This
was not a paradox for William Miller or Samuel Snow...
...neither of
the men were Sabbatarians.

It was a simple question for
them...
...they had a single focus...
...they believed that the old
Karaite calendar would be the most accurate way to determine the Day of
Atonement in 1844 which Snow finally determined as October 22
1844.

The paradox was only created when Adventists later believed
they should keep the Sabbath and not Sunday as a day of worship.

So
they ended up having embraced an origin determined by a Lunar
calendar...
...determining their Sabbath on the basis of the
Julian/Gregoorian.

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#13

Troubleshooter

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Question #3

Quote:

3. In your second post below, you seem to be insinuating
that the GC Committee was in agreement with your above claims, or
isn’t that implied by these words of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by
Troubleshooter

It was not done in a
corner...
...and all the issues were well
understood...
...and the implications realized...
...but
it was decided not to trouble the church with
it.

On
November 7, 1938, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
appointed a Research Committee to investigate discrepancies in calendation
principles that could affect the church's understanding of the prophetic
timelines of Daniel.

Details of the Research Commitee Final Report
are outlined here...

http://www.4angelspublications.com/rcfr.php

The
entire report of the committee is linked from this page.

The
problem was later highlighted in the Adventist Yearbook 1883

"Those
who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous
objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, –
THE CROSS. This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible
Sabbath."
(capitalization emphasis appeared in the original)

A
facsimile of the page appears here...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What
they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being
on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This anomaly remains a problem for
which there is no answer.

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12-01-2009

#14

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The Good News is that God has the Answers to all our
problems...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

On November 7, 1938, the General
Conference of Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee
to investigate discrepancies in calendation principles that could
affect the church's understanding of the prophetic timelines of
Daniel.

Details of the Research Commitee Final Report are
outlined here...

4angelspublications.com/rcfr.php

The
entire report of the committee is linked from this page.

The
problem was later highlighted in the Adventist Yearbook
1883

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring
against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered
with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the
unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."
(capitalization
emphasis appeared in the original)

A facsimile of the page
appears
here...
4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What
they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not
being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This
anomaly remains a problem for which there is no
answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by
point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more importantly
than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has seemed fit to bless me
with sharing with you the specific and very exact answer to that
"anomaly... problem..." which you are referencing by these words of
yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

This anomaly
remains a problem for which there is no answer.

[Color
emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

You'll find it at this link:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm

- Be
sure to follow relevant links on that page and you shouldn't find yourself
disappointed!

Yet, be prepared to revise some of the erroneous
teachings you've been programmed with over the years by the powers that be
. . . Exactly as prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And as also referenced by
Jesus in Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

Praise
the Lord of Hosts, our Savior!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
(c)

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#15

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by
point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more
importantly than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has
seemed fit to bless me with sharing with you the specific and very
exact answer to that "anomaly... problem..." which you are
referencing by these words of yours:

- Be sure to follow
relevant links on that page and you shouldn't find yourself
disappointed!

Yet, be prepared to revise some of the
erroneous teachings you've been programmed with over the years by
the powers that be . . . Exactly as prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And
as also referenced by Jesus in Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew
24:15 and Mark 13:14!

I
am very busy elsewhere proclaiming the Gospel to people who don't know
it...
...if you think you have answers I prefer that you present them
here so other can benefit from your insight.

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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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#16

Troubleshooter

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Question #4

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToL

4. Now, if that is true, and if I am
not misreading you, then…

What do you make of the following
words of M. L. Andreasen?

- Isn’t it obvious that these
words of M. L. Andreasen is making it quite clear that the reckoning
of lunar months “does not in any way affect the succession of the
days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath?”

-
And isn’t it quite obvious from the following quoted words of his,
that M. L. Andreasen is not at odds with anyone in the Committee re
this particular?:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L.,
Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the
proposed scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”]
does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week,
and hence does not affect the sabbath…”

[Bracketed words
added / Tree of Life (c)]

Aren’t those words of M. L.
Andreasen quite at odds with your above insinuations, while clearly
indicating that no one in that Committee was ever even considering a
thing such as this construct called the “Lunar Sabbath
argument?”

Yet curiously it was still
seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years
later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members that
I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble
the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of observing a lunar
determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and post it here
soon.

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#17

Troubleshooter

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Inconvenient...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still seen as a
problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years
later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members
that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would
not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of
observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and
post it here soon.

"We
cannot afford to start trouble of our own. To the world it will look that
the present proposed calendar is advanced for a specific purpose – not
for the purpose of adoption, for we will find that it is impossible of
universal application – not for the purpose of supporting the 1844
date. I do not believe that we are under that necessity. It must be
possible to establish October 22 1844 without resorting to such
devices."

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/Andreasens%20letter.pdf

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#18

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"...over forty years later..." than what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it
was still seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook
1883...
...over forty years
later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee
members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they
would not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty
of observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and
post it here soon.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

"...over forty years later..." than what? 1939,
1844, or what? Neither one of those dates seem to fit your words,
do they?

Peace,
Tree of Life (c)

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#19

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

"...over forty years later..." than what?
1939, 1844, or what? Neither one of those dates seem
to fit your words, do they?

More than
forty years later than the GC Conferenced convened to discuss
it.

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#20

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1883 is "...over forty years later..." than 1939???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

More than forty years later than the
GC Conferenced convened to discuss
it.

Ok Trouble
Shooter,

It seems clear to me then, that, per your reckoning,
1883 is "...over 40 years later..." than 1939???

Isn't there
something that's gone awry here? It certainly isn't a typo re 1883 or
1939, for clearly the links you've provided to documents associated with
those two years do confirm that those are indeed the years you are meaning
to reference. Yet to me, 1883 is 56 years before 1939, not
"over 40 years later..."

So what am I
missing?

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

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#21

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Note to self...I must not post late at
night...
...obviously 1844 date for the cross was an issue in 1883 and
the problem with dates was still significant enough to require a GC
conference committee in 1939.

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12-09-2009

#22

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Thanks for admitting the obvious! Thanks for giving room to
peace!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Note to self...I must not post late
at night...
...obviously 1844 date for the cross was an issue in
1883 and the problem with dates was still significant enough to
require a GC conference committee in
1939.

Thanks Trouble
Shooter!

Thanks for admitting an obvious error! It happens to
all of us. It happens to the best. Once the obvious is seen, recognized,
accepted, admitted, to self and unto others, a lot of tension is suddenly
relieved. All of a sudden there is peace. All of a sudden there is room
for something better, something more in line with reality, something
giving each of us more strength, health, and happiness in
life.

Like as you are making a "Note to self...I must not post late
at night...," so also I can experience relief in your admission of the
obvious and go on to bigger and better things...

Isn't this what
true forgiveness is all about?

And thanks ever so much for
standing up for your convictions re the Paradox of the 2,300 mornings and
evenings vs. an obviously erroneous 31 A.D. crucifixion year and for
sharing with me the apparently reliable, yet false, basis for these
2,300/31AD items as defended by the 1939 SDA GC Research Committee on the
basis of a computation of the U.S. Naval Observatory - which doesn't stand
up to the test of reality as is obvious from the last 10 years of actual
New Moon crescent observations by Karaites in Israel! The more obvious
this error can be made, the sooner it will be corrected. For isn't it a
shame to all of us, who claim to believe in honesty and in the
truthfulness of the Holy Scriptures, to recognize such an error while that
error is yet being widely proclaimed in evangelistic campaigns and in
educational institutions alike?

The sooner we can rid ourselves of
errors such as these, the sooner we can go on to bigger and better
things... The sooner there will be peace and happiness in our families and
in our homes... The sooner our level of confusion and frustration will
diminish and even vanish forever! Tension and distrust will be replaced
with peace among men and mutual trust... when we do perceive, in one
another, sincerity and an honest will to correct each our part in errors
yet extant!

Thanks again, Trouble
Shooter!

Peace,

Tree of Life (c)

PS.
For details re the 2,300/31AD paradox, please cf. my prior post at
forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706
!!!

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12-09-2009

#23

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

And thanks ever so much for standing
up for your convictions re the Paradox of the 2,300 mornings and
evenings vs. an obviously erroneous 31 A.D. crucifixion year and for
sharing with me the apparently reliable, yet false, basis for these
2,300/31AD items as defended by the 1939 SDA GC Research Committee
on the basis of a computation of the U.S. Naval Observatory - which
doesn't stand up to the test of reality as is obvious from the last
10 years of actual New Moon crescent observations by Karaites in
Israel! The more obvious this error can be made, the sooner it will
be corrected. For isn't it a shame to all of us, who claim to
believe in honesty and in the truthfulness of the Holy Scriptures,
to recognize such an error while that error is yet being widely
proclaimed in evangelistic campaigns and in educational institutions
alike?

It is easy to see things as
they really are when you are not trying to hang onto some personal
agenda.

Quote:

The sooner we can rid ourselves of errors such as these,
the sooner we can go on to bigger and better things... The sooner
there will be peace and happiness in our families and in our
homes... The sooner our level of confusion and frustration will
diminish and even vanish forever! Tension and distrust will be
replaced with peace among men and mutual trust... when we do
perceive, in one another, sincerity and an honest will to correct
each our part in errors yet extant!

I
don't think our salvation depends on correct doctrine or
theology...
...only whether we believe in the historical achievement of
Jesus.

Doctrine and Theology only has value as it brings Jesus into
clearer focus.

Quote:

PS. For details re the 2,300/31AD paradox, please cf. my
prior post at forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706
!!!

I will answer this post, I have just
been otherwise occupied.

You should read through the main points of
the following thread...
...it covers some of the issues you have raised
that are not filled out here.
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

...particularly
here.

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=4752097#poststop

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12-01-2009

#24

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"The Wandering Lunar Day Lines" or "observing a lunar determined
Sabbath?"

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

Thanks ever so much for taking of your
valuable time to answering my questions. That is very helpful to
me!

Thanks also for all the good links you are providing in
specific response to my questions!

Yet, there are some things in
your responses that I do not seem to be able to make any sense of. Perhaps
I am losing my mind???

Please help me sort these things out by
letting me know a little about your point of
view!

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still seen
as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty
years later.

There is also a letter by
one of the committee members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble the people
with it...
...meaning the difficulty of
observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it
and post it here soon.

[Color emphasis added throughout /
Tree of Life (c)]

The
"letter..." that you are referencing above is the one you are here
quoting, isn't it?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

"We cannot afford to start
trouble of our own. To the world it will look that the present
proposed calendar is advanced for a specific purpose – not for the
purpose of adoption, for we will find that it is impossible of
universal application – not for the purpose of supporting the 1844
date. I do not believe that we are under that necessity. It must be
possible to establish October 22 1844 without resorting to such
devices."

4angelspublications.com/pdf/Andreasens%20letter.pdf

But...
Isn't this letter that you are quoting focusing upon quite another matter
than "observing a lunar determined Sabbath!" The problem dealt with in
this letter is very much of a different nature, namely "the Wandering
Lunar Day Lines...!" (Cf. the title of that letter that you are quoting!)
That's quite another matter than "a lunar determined Sabbath...", isn't
it?!!!

How do you connect one with the other?

Furthermore,
within the post of mine that you are responding to, I already quoted that
very letter as explicitly stating as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L., Objections…,
p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed scheme
[re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”] does not in any way affect the succession of the days of
the week, and hence does not affect the
sabbath…”

[Bracketed words and color emphasis added /
Tree of Life (c)]

How do you connect
"the Wandering Lunar Day Lines" with "observing a lunar determined
Sabbath???" Especially in the face of said explicit statement to the
contrary - within the very same letter!!!

Please explain that to
me for I for one cannot make any sense out of
that!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

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11-30-2009

#25

Troubleshooter

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Question #5,6,7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

5.
Please show me clearly where I
am missing something! I’ve read most of the Grace Amadon Collection
documents currently published at 4 Angel’s Publications. Yet, I have
failed to find anything of substance in support of this so called
Lunar Sabbath argument...

Quote:

6.
Nevertheless, I am also seeing that the GC
Committee was suffering from confusion re a number of particulars.

Perhaps, for the purposes of this thread, the most important
among those confusions of the Committee members is the obvious
discrepancy between Grace E. Amadon’s understanding, as expressed by
the following words as quoted by her, and between the very clear and
obvious meaning of the words themselves.

That is, from the
context it is clear that Grace E. Amadon and others in the Committee
believed that Bliss and the Millerites were reckoning Tishri 1, 1844
as beginning at sunset October 12 and not “with the appearance of
the moon on the 13th of October…” as clearly stated by Bliss. The
reasoning of the Committee seems to be that each and all of the
Feast Days were fixed once Nisan 1 was determined (cf. her words in
the remainder of this 3 page document of hers: )

Quote:

7.
Could it be that this whole ‘Lunar Sabbath
argument’ is derived from this very same misunderstanding - re a
relative fixing of the seven special Feast Days within any given
Karaite year - a misunderstanding evidently shared generally among
the GC Committee members?

I am hoping you will help us all by
shedding a little of your light upon these issues. How do you
perceive these items?

These are not really
question but statements and reflections...
...I am not sure what you
want me to comment on.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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#26

Brotherbrian

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my grasp of this is still that the karaites
never had an issue with the julian-gregorian calendar 7th day sabbath.
they observe it to this day, and were in the 1800s.

Maybe im
missing the point here?

__________________
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strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs
20:3

Shalom, amigos....
Brian

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11-30-2009

#27

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

my grasp of this is still that the
karaites never had an issue with the julian-gregorian calendar 7th
day sabbath. they observe it to this day, and were in the
1800s.

Maybe im missing the point
here?

My understanding is that the
Karaite calendar as it existed in the 1800's and today observes a seven
day cycle in sync with the Julian/Gregorian...
...but the older Karaite
calendar that William Miller/Samuel Snow used to establish 22 October 1844
as the Day of Atonement that year...
...was a Luni/Solar calendar used
prior to the establishment of the Julian calendar in approximately 50
BC...
...and may have continued in use for another two
centuries.

It seems from biblical and extra-biblical sources that
the calendar Israel used from the Exodus from Egypt for approx 1400 years
was Lunar.
It also seems that the calendar that was in use when Jesus
lived and died was Lunar.

The Hebrew designation of days and months
were Lunar.
Nisan, Tishri etc were lunar months determined by each new
moon.

The words Friday, Saturday and Sunday do not appear in
biblical literature...
...and appear to be determined
differently...
...and are not necessarily the same as 'preparation
day', 'Sabbath' and 'first day of the week'.

Jewish scholarship
supports this contention.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both
periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still,
and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle”
(Universal Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the
Sabbath the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became
symbolic of the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the
Sabbaths became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR
MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was
six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were
accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for
human life. The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however,
was [later] discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New
Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

So SDA's mark their
origin from a time based on a Lunar calendar...
...but observe a
Sabbath based on the cycle of the Julian/Gregorian seven day
week...
...this is the paradox.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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11-30-2009

#28

Brotherbrian

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Im still of the mind that they just "said"
they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about it somewhere, and
that they just "held everyting a month later" than the traditional jewish
calendar. Because an Oct 22 Yom Kippur is unheard of in written history. I
also find no evidence for any biblical example of observing a weekly lunar
sabbath.

__________________
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strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs
20:3

Shalom, amigos....
Brian

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11-30-2009

#29

Tree of Life ©

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The real reason for October and not September...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

Im still of the mind that they
just "said" they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about
it somewhere, and that they just "held everyting a month later" than
the traditional jewish calendar. Because an Oct 22 Yom Kippur is
unheard of in written history. I also find no evidence for any
biblical example of observing a weekly lunar
sabbath.

Dear Brother
Brian,

Re these words of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

“they just
"said" they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about it somewhere, and that they just "held everyting a month later":”

[Color
emphasis added / Tree of Life ©]

What
you should know re the people at the lead of the Advent movement in the
1840ies is that they were not basing their teaching merely upon any
superficial impression coming their way. Allow me to quote a few words as
published at the 4 Angel’s Publications web site re their thoroughness and
their zeal re these particulars:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Courageous action of Millerites on
Jewish Calendar problem.pdf

…that they might correctly
determine the close of the 2300 year period, took clear, scholarly
thinking, intensive research, extraordinary moral courage, and
really heroic, decisive action. They risked all upon this crucial
position… (page 1, first paragraph.)

Painstakingly studying
the Karaite protest in the Middle Ages against the Rabbinical
perversion of the calendar, they at last deliberately and
irrevocably accepted, restored, and applied to their time-prophecy
problem, the earlier calendation championed by the Karaites. And
this they did in defiance of the whole body of Rabbinical
scholarship and the general current practice of
Jewry…

[From:
4angelspublications.com/pdf/Courageous%20action%20of%20Millerites%20on%20Jewis
h%20Calendar%20problem.pdf]

These
people were not the average John Does on the street! May I suggest you
read the entire article (only 6 pages) at the link given in the quote?

Here’s the real reason that they chose October over and above
September for Tishri, the seventh lunar month:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millerite Computation of the
October 22 date.pdf

Karaite literature pointed them
to Leviticus as teaching that the ancient paschal season had to
coincide with ripe barley, which, except in the valley of Jericho,
occurs in April-May in Palestine—not in the March period. According
to Dalman and others, Palestinian March is a winter month, and has a
snow fall equal to January. Hence April is the barley-harvest month
in Mediterranean countries, and therefore commonly the paschal
month. Sometimes, however, the passover was as late as May. In the
Near East, spring and winter stand in close connection, and the
spring has strong meteorological contrasts, thus tending a delay in
the harvest, and in the beginning of the Jewish year.*

- - -
- - - -
*) Gustav Dalman, Arbeit und Sitte in Palästina
[Gütersloh, 1928], 3 Band, 1. Hälfte, pp. 305,
306.

[From:
4angelspublications.com/pdf/Millerite%20Computation%20of%20the%20October%2022%
20date.pdf]

Lastly, I
certainly agree with you re your last sentence:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

I also find no evidence for any
biblical example of observing a weekly lunar
sabbath.

On the contrary, in my
extensive New Testament chronology studies over the last several years,
I’ve found numerous verifiable instances of the New Testament people
observing the Seventh-day Sabbath as currently kept by most Seventh-day
Adventists, that is, according to the cyclical non-lunar week.
Unfortunately, most of the dates provided in the Greek Textus Receptus are
not carried over into most modern translations of the New Testament. One
example of this is Acts 20:6-7, which passage is giving reference first to
the Seventh-day of the week and then to the Seventh Day of the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, both of which fell out, in that year, on Nisan/Abib 21.
For all those who may be leery in trusting me on that particular, let me
just point out that per Leviticus 23:6-8 both the 15th and the 21st (not
the 22nd!) are extra annual Sabbaths, that is, the First Day of Unleavened
Bread and the Seventh Day of Unleavened Bread.

It is becoming ever
more clear to me that this “Lunar Sabbath argument” is based upon little
or nothing of substance. Even so, pursuing matters such as this to the end
of the line is usually quite enlightening and well worth while whether or
not the original claim holds true… And, if in the end there is gold at the
end of the rainbow I wouldn’t want to miss it, would
you?

Shalom,

Tree of Life
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12-01-2009

#30

Brotherbrian

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I had read them once through, when the site
was originally posted. I will go back through and re-read them, for
posterity's sake. And for historical accuracy, as most SDA's today dont
even know what a karaite even is, lol.

__________________
"It is an honor for a man to cease from
strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs
20:3

Shalom, amigos....
Brian

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12-01-2009

#31

pythons

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What answer is it that you provide to the
question of "the great and unanswerable question to the Bible
Sabbath" as listed in the 1883 yearbook?

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12-01-2009

#32

Tree of Life ©

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The Answer to the 31 AD Crucifixion and the associated Bible
Sabbaths...

The
Answer to the "anomaly... problem..." re the "31 A.D." and "THE CROSS...
[as] the unanswerable objection to the Bible
Sabbath..."

Dear Pythons,

The
context of your question, and of my prior answer, is found in this quote
from Troubleshooter's post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...highlighted in the Adventist
Yearbook 1883

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day
Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are
readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the
great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible
Sabbath."
(capitalization emphasis appeared in the
original)

A facsimile of the page appears
here...
4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What
they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not
being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This
anomaly remains a problem for which there is no
answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

My more comprehensive
answer is found in the link also previously provided, that is, thusly
provided (Notice the added blue font!: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by
point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more
importantly than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has
seemed fit to bless me with sharing with you the specific and very
exact answer to that "anomaly... problem..." which you are
referencing by these words of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

This
anomaly remains a problem for which there is no
answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

You'll find it at this
link: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm

- Be sure to follow relevant links on that page and
you shouldn't find yourself disappointed!

Yet, be prepared
to revise some of the erroneous teachings you've been programmed
with over the years by the powers that be . . . Exactly as
prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And as also referenced by Jesus in
Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

Praise the Lord of Hosts, our
Savior!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
(c)

To put it succinctly, the
answer to the dilemma is found in going to the bottom with things... That
is, in doing as the Bereans did, per Acts 17:10-12:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 17:10-12 KJV

10 And the brethren immediately
sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither
went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more
noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they
received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the
scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12
Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were
Greeks, and of men, not a few.

[Color emphasis added / Tree
of Life (c)]

The correct year of
the crucifixion is not "31 A.D.," it is 18 CE! And indeed, in applying
that year to all the dates provided by the Greek Textus Receptus and other
like manuscripts, all the questions re "the Bible Sabbaths," are also
being readily answered!

But, don't just take my word for it! Pursue
for yourself all the evidence and all the facts brought forwards in
support of 18 CE being the correct year and - if you do your own diligent
studies - you cannot go wrong! That is, so long as you are walking step by
little step, line upon line, and precept upon precept, while holding
tightly your hand in the hand of our Savior, Him who is indeed the Great I
Am, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you cannot but get ever closer to a
realization of all the blessings of the Kingdom of God! Or isn't that
obvious to you too?

31 AD was an honest mistake of some very
honorable men and women who were indeed doings as the Bereans did, but who
didn't as yet have access to all that light which the Lord is providing us
today. Yet, without the very noble and diligent work of theirs, we
wouldn't be where we are, and we wouldn't be standing upon the shoulder's
of giants - as in some important respects we are today!

Praise the
Lord, the Creator of the universe!

Consider it!
Selah!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

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12-01-2009

#33

Troubleshooter

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Question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

The correct year of the crucifixion
is not "31 A.D.," it is 18 CE! And indeed, in applying that year to
all the dates provided by the Greek Textus Receptus and other like
manuscripts, all the questions re "the Bible Sabbaths," are also
being readily answered!

So you don't
argue for a 457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844 prophetic schema for the 2300
days/years Daniel 8:14?

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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12-01-2009

#34

Tree of Life ©

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Present truth re Daniel's prophecies and related
chronology...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

So you don't argue for a 457BC 37AD
31AD 34AD 1844 prophetic schema for the 2300 days/years Daniel
8:14?

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

You are correct. I don't argue for those dates - "457BC
37AD 31AD 34AD 1844" - being the present truth re the 490 years and/or re
the 2,300 days. The prophetic interpretation using those particular years
have brought many blessings as a way point on our way to the Kingdom of
Heaven, but God has now seen fit to give more light upon those issues. Or,
at the very least, that's how I perceive it from my perspective.

If you wish to participate in some of the vistas that God has
opened to view for me re Daniel's prophecies, you are invited to this
GateWay link where you may choose whichever articles of mine that you are
most interested in:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm [Make sure you remove all spaces out of my URLs or they won't
work!]

Enjoy, but please recognize that this is a paradigm
shift of no small proportions relative to conventional dating of history,
so you'll have to be willing to accept the necessity of unlearning most of
the chronological dates you've formerly come to recognize! Most people
stumble and fall on that, sorry to say... As you probably already know,
most people prefer to think and be as they think the Joneses do... and
because of that they don't have time for much else and are not willing to
stand up for something they may perceive as being outside of generally
accepted thinking...

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

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12-01-2009

#35

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,

You are
correct. I don't argue for those dates - "457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844"
- being the present truth re the 490 years and/or re the 2,300 days.
The prophetic interpretation using those particular years have
brought many blessings as a way point on our way to the Kingdom of
Heaven, but God has now seen fit to give more light upon those
issues. Or, at the very least, that's how I perceive it from my
perspective.

If you wish to participate in some of the
vistas that God has opened to view for me re Daniel's prophecies,
you are invited to this GateWay link where you may choose whichever
articles of mine that you are most interested in:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm [Make sure you remove all spaces out of my URLs or they
won't work!]

Enjoy, but please recognize that this is a
paradigm shift of no small proportions relative to conventional
dating of history, so you'll have to be willing to accept the
necessity of unlearning most of the chronological dates you've
formerly come to recognize! Most people stumble and fall on that,
sorry to say... As you probably already know, most people prefer to
think and be as they think the Joneses do... and because of that
they don't have time for much else and are not willing to stand up
for something they may perceive as being outside of generally
accepted thinking...

Here is a bigger
paradigm shift for you dear...

The Hebrew word for day
'yown' does not appear in Daniel 8:14...
...so the unbiblical
year for a day principle can't be used anyway.

The error was based
on the English translation that renders 'ereb' boqer' meaning 'evening
morning' as days.

So unless you know of a 'year for an evening
morning' principle that I don't know about...
...there is no way to get
from 457 or 533 (or any other date) to 1844 anyway.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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12-02-2009

#36

Tree of Life ©

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'evening morning' vs. 'day' - Re Daniel 8:14 and Genesis
1:5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Here is a bigger paradigm shift for
you dear...

The Hebrew word for day 'yown' does not appear in
Daniel 8:14...
...so the unbiblical year for a day principle
can't be used anyway.

The error was based on the English
translation that renders 'ereb' boqer' meaning 'evening morning' as
days.

So unless you know of a 'year for an evening morning'
principle that I don't know about...
...there is no way to get
from 457 or 533 (or any other date) to 1844
anyway.

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

Yeah, that's a grand paradigm shift too that I
am very well aware of... Whether "bigger" or not I cannot
tell.

Allow me to share something in re to that 'evening morning'
issue that likely you "don't know about..." before now:

I don't
know if you've noticed, but Genesis Chapter One is a chapter of
definitions. One of the first definitions there found is the definition
for the word 'day.' You'll find it in verse 5, the last sentence. That
sentence may be accurately translated as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 1:5 - Tree of Life Time
(c) version

...And the dark [period]
and the light [period] = one
day.

As I said already, I
don't reckon "457... 1844..." as present truth.

You might be
interested in actually studying my discoveries re the 2300 evenings and
mornings. I already gave you the link, didn't
I?!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
(c)

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12-02-2009

#37

Troubleshooter

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Just curious...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Yeah,
that's a grand paradigm shift too that I am very well aware of...
Whether "bigger" or not I cannot tell.

Allow me to share
something in re to that 'evening morning' issue that likely you
"don't know about..." before now:

I don't know if you've
noticed, but Genesis Chapter One is a chapter of definitions. One of
the first definitions there found is the definition for the word
'day.' You'll find it in verse 5, the last sentence. That sentence
may be accurately translated as
follows:

You do know that Moses wrote
Genesis and Daniel wrote Daniel (except the chapter Nebuchadnezzar wrote
of course)...
...and these two documents were written about 1000 years
apart.

The 'ereb boqer' in Genesis is modified by
'yown'...
...yowm can be used to mean 'day', 'a period of
time' or a 'year'...
...and how it is applied depends on the
context.

In the case of Genesis 'ereb boqer' is modified by
'yowm' which can only mean Moses intended to convey the idea that
each period was a 24 hour day.

Daniel uses the word 'yown'
six times in Daniel...
...so obviously he knew what the word
meant...
...but when describing the duration of the 2300 'ereb
boqer' he does not modify this with the word
'yowm'...
...and Daniel never uses the word 'yowm'
anywhere in chapter 8...
...so I have to conclude that Daniel meant
'evening and morning'...
...and that these were either 2300 evening and
mornings total or 1150 days each with one evening and morning...
...and
either way niether means year.

Quote:

As I said already, I don't reckon "457... 1844..." as
present truth.

You might be interested in actually studying
my discoveries re the 2300 evenings and mornings. I already gave you
the link, didn't I?!

I have read the
material at the link you have provided...
...it is not 'present truth'
but just a new twist on an 'old error'...
...and I am still trying to
determine the core motive for your theories.

Question: Tree of
Life, if your life was required of you tonight and you were to die in your
sleep...
...on what basis would you be assured of 'being right with
God'?

How do you believed you are, are being or will be
saved?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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12-02-2009

#38

Tree of Life ©

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Hebr. 'yom' = 'be hot' = 'day' = 'summer' = 'year' etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

You do know that Moses wrote
Genesis and Daniel wrote Daniel (except the chapter Nebuchadnezzar
wrote of course)...
...and these two documents were written about
1000 years apart.

The 'ereb boqer' in Genesis is modified by
'yown'...
...yowm can be used to mean 'day', 'a period of time'
or a 'year'...
...and how it is applied depends on the
context.

In the case of Genesis 'ereb boqer' is modified by
'yowm' which can only mean Moses intended to convey the idea that
each period was a 24 hour day.

Daniel uses the word 'yown'
six times in Daniel...
...so obviously he knew what the word
meant...
...but when describing the duration of the 2300 'ereb
boqer' he does not modify this with the word 'yowm'...
...and
Daniel never uses the word 'yowm' anywhere in chapter 8...
...so
I have to conclude that Daniel meant 'evening and
morning'...
...and that these were either 2300 evening and
mornings total or 1150 days each with one evening and
morning...
...and either way niether means year.

I
have read the material at the link you have provided...
...it is
not 'present truth' but just a new twist on an 'old
error'...
...and I am still trying to determine the core motive
for your theories.

Question: Tree of Life, if your life was
required of you tonight and you were to die in your
sleep...
...on what basis would you be assured of 'being right
with God'?

How do you believed you are, are being or will be
saved?

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

1.

* * * Quoting Strong's Hebrew
Dictionary: * * *

H3117: yome, From an unused root meaning
to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether
literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or
figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used
adverbially)

* * * End of quote * * *

As you can see from
the above definition, applying this same word to the annual cycle, it
primarily means, not 'year,' but 'summer.' Yet, it is usually translated
'year.'

2.

Re your comments touching on
Genesis 1:5 and especially re your words "modified by...:"

Are you
aware of how the English words 'was,''is,' 'is being,' 'will be,' etc. are
translated into Hebrew and vice versa?

Shalom,

Tree
of Life (c)

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12-02-2009

#39

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

* * * Quoting Strong's Hebrew
Dictionary: * * *

H3117: yome, From an unused root meaning to be hot; a
day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from
sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively
(a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used
adverbially)

* * * End of quote * * *

As you can see
from the above definition, applying this same word to the annual
cycle, it primarily means, not 'year,' but 'summer.' Yet, it is
usually translated 'year.'

I was
quoting Strongs Data...

Strongs Data for 3117 yowm {yome}

Meaning: 1) day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24
hour period).

You were only quoting the unused part of the root of
the word definition...

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Troubleshooter

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12-03-2009

#40

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

On the Value of Hebrew Roots in Determining the most Focal Meaning
of Words

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I was quoting Strongs
Data...

Strongs Data for 3117 yowm {yome}
Meaning: 1)
day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour
period).

You were only quoting the unused part of the root of
the word
definition...

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

What's more primary, a root or such as is
derived from the root? Did you ever use Strong's for the purpose of
finding the common denominator between words in Hebrew with identical
spelling? Did you ever study the roots of words for the purpose of
determining which translation may be closer to the original and true
meaning of a Scriptural passage?

Did you ever consider that the
'hot' portion is that portion of the day when the sun is up and warming us
all? Did you ever consider that the 'hot' portion of the year is the
summer, or the not infrequent phrasing re one's age in terms of so many
summers or in terms of so many springs? Did you ever consider why, in the
Scriptures, the word 'yom' (meaning primarily hot, warm) is sometimes
translated as 'day,' sometimes as 'years?' Thus, isn't it true that 'yom'
as applied to 'a 24-hour day' or to 'a year' is in reality an extension of
the most central or focal meaning of that Hebrew word?

Hoping
you'll find value and interest in this and other things I am
sharing...

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

Tree of Life ©

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