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Adventism

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

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07-07-2009

#1

Troubleshooter

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Titus and the FIRST SABBATH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Greg - I thank you for the quote but
I am not sure what the heart of the issue is? Is the heart of this
discussion what does one do with the moon, or is the heart of the
issue what does Jesus want from us in reference to the Passover,
Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Wave Sheaf; or is it what does Jesus
want us to do regarding
Sabbath?

Titus Flavius Clemens (c.150
- 215) is also known as Clement of Alexandria.
His words under
discussion here are...

"THE MONTH AND THE MOON. AND IF THE MOON BE
NOT VISIBLE, THEY DO NOT HOLD THE SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE FIRST, NOR
DO THEY HOLD THE NEW MOON, NOR THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, NOR THE
FEAST NOR THE GREAT DAY."

Titus comments can best be understood
with reference to a Lunar calendar.

THE
SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE FIRST must be referring to the first weekly
Sabbath of the month...
...which he mentions separately to the NEW MOON
day...
...this is a reference to the timing of the beginning of
Israel's year.

New Moon day is the first day following the sighting
of the New Moon...
...notice on the calendar day 'one' is in the
Sabbath column.

It is not technically a Sabbath because it does not
follow six days of work...
...you can see this on the second month
Lyar, it has 30 days...
...there has been a weekly Sabbath on the 29th
day, so there is only one work day before the New Moon day...
...in 29
day months the fourth Sabbath of the month is followed by New Moon day,
both rest days...
...that begins again the succession of 'weekly'
Sabbaths etc.

The point is that Titus is making reference to the
NEW MOON day of the Lunar calendar...
...which is then followed by six
work day and the first 'weekly' SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE
FIRST.

This then sets the timing of THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD
determined by the NEW MOON.

Then Titus says, NOR THE FEAST NOR THE
GREAT DAY which is Passover and the feast of Passover...
...Passover is
both an event and a feast timed from the first New Moon of the
year.

Titus is then saying that IF THE MOON BE NOT VISIBLE, THEY DO
NOT HOLD THE SABBATH...
...they therefore wait until it is visible to
begins Israel's year and succession of weekly Sabbaths.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-07-2009 at 03:37
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07-08-2009

#2

Greg Goodchild

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So do you want Titus to establish the Sabbath
or Jesus?

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07-08-2009

#3

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

So do you want Titus to establish
the Sabbath or Jesus?

The Lord
established the Sabbath with Israel...
...this same Lord became Jesus
and Christ...
...and it seems this Lord established the Sabbath
according to a monthly cycle.

And Titus bore witness to
them.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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07-10-2009

#4

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The Lord established the Sabbath
with Israel...
...this same Lord became Jesus and
Christ...
...and it seems this Lord established the Sabbath
according to a monthly cycle.

And Titus bore witness to
them.

Monthly
cycles is the new moons. The Sabbath was established by the cycle
established by Jesus in the Creation story. Every Seven days. The Lord of
the Sabbath came to mankind and lived out His very own Sabbath. He left
this example for us to follow. Jesus is the Author, Creator, Redeemer,
Justifer, Deliverer, Sanctifier of those who keep the Sabbath.

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07-03-2009

#5

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

I don't understand your issue over
the Sabbath in the days of Jesus death. It appears to me that you
are trying to settle a spiritual issue by logic and reason. You, of
course are free to do so and to deal with whatever issues you feel a
need to address.

From my perspective it is solved three
ways, God said it, it is written in the Bible, EGW confirmed it. It
would be nice for me to be able to solve all of your concerns so
that your logic and reason were satisfied but it appears that even
old Jack Finergan could not solve the issue absolutely. Therefore
the issue, in my opinion, is faith rather than the logic. I
believe that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly
Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave
sheaf offering.

In addition since I am settled on Sabbath as
a sign of Jesus' eternal covenant, I believe that it will continue
for ever since Jesus blessed His Sabbath day by resting on it, and
then returning to the work of salvation on Sunday. So for me Sabbath
is not a paradox, it is simply a matter of faith and obedience by
faith.

So you don't agree with Ellen
or scripture?
Ellen believed the Sabbath was a Passover and scripture
agrees.

Ellen also said...
"In company with His disciples, the
Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover
moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of
pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

You can't have the
combination of a Saturday/Sabbath/Passover and a full moon in 31
AD...
...unless you accept Sabbath's were determined by the a Lunar
calendar.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-03-2009 at 06:28
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07-06-2009

#6

Greg Goodchild

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[QUOTE=Troubleshooter;4929143]So you don't
agree with Ellen or scripture?
Ellen believed the Sabbath was a
Passover and scripture agrees.

Ellen also said...
"In company
with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of
Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a
cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA
685

You can't have the combination of a Saturday/Sabbath/Passover
and a full moon in 31 AD...
...unless you accept Sabbath's were
determined by the a Lunar calendar.

Greg - Passover was on Friday,
which starts at sundown. Jesus died on the preparation day. He rested in
the tomb on the second SAbbath, which landed on the Weekly Sabbath day,
and He resurrected and went back to work on the issues of salvation on the
third Annual Sabbath - Wave sheaf. As far as I can see I am in harmony
with the Bible and with EGW, since she is always in harmony with the
Bible. What I am not in harmony with is each subtle intent to nullify
Scripture, and the holy Sabbath day.

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07-03-2009

#7

Gospel_Way

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Let me see if I can break this one down for
you Brother Greg.

Troubleshooter has a problem with the Adventist
interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34 AD). The particular
bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD as the year for the
crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of Jesus’ death occurring in
that year but he believes that the only way that it can qualify as the
year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th day Sabbath was determined by the lunar
cycle. Therefore he concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his
estimation, our prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our
belief in the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can only
work if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the lunar cycle.
In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on different days every
month because the count would start once the new moon’s crescent was seen.
Therefore Troubleshooter thinks that our holding to 31 AD as the year of
the crucifixion is at odds with the 7th day Sabbath occurring on the same
day (Saturday) throughout the year. (PS: Feel free to correct me
Troubleshooter if I have not accurately stated your objection)

Now
why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify if we have a lunar cycle
Sabbath? Well to make a long story very short it is apparent from the
Scriptures that Jesus died on a Friday. That Friday was the Passover and
it was followed by the 7th day Sabbath. We know this for certain because
the Bible is very clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See
the end of Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in
hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count back in time
to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have occurred. According
to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to happen on the 14th day of the
first Jewish month. So it appears that he has concluded that one can
simply count back 14 days from Friday and figure out which day of the week
the new moon had to have occurred on in order to produce a Friday
Passover. With that thought in mind, he has concluded that the new moon
didn’t happen on the right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover
because the conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in
March. He has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the full
moon disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And just for
clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new moon. The new
moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth, moon and sun are all
in a straight line so that no light can be seen reflecting off of the
moon. When this would happen the Jews would understand that it was close
to the time to start a new month. Once the crescent of the moon was seen
reflecting light by witnesses a confirmation process would happen in the
Sanhedrin and a new month would begin.

The problem with
Troubleshooter’s theory is that he does not acknowledge the human element
in the equation. The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new
moon and the month could start at the end of those three days. There are
also a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date
of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how
absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because
ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually
work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in mind
the 3-day range for starting the month. My post entitled “And the wheels
on the bus go round and round” evidences this.

Now just to be
technical let me give a bit of clarification on another one of his
statements.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: Ellen believed the Sabbath was a
Passover and scripture agrees

Quote:

Greg_Goodchild wrote: I believe that Friday was Passover,
Sabbath was both a weekly Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened
Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf offering.

Lest there be any confusion on this matter
the Passover ritual extended from the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen
White believed that the Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to
Friday sunset) was the day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation
day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The
Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it
pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s tomb”
(Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the Passover ritual will
actually help clarify any confusion here. The Passover lamb was to be
slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st month specifically “in the
evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then the flesh was eaten “in that
night” (Ex 12:8). In other words the Passover lamb was slain at the
close of the 14th day and it was eaten during the beginning of the 15th
day. Hence the observation of the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb)
occurred while Jesus was dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can
accurately say that the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because
the lamb was eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that
Friday was the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st
month and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we
think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications but I
hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you are right in
your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week was both a 7th day
Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations” associated with the feast of
unleavened bread. This is the most likely explanation for the term “high
Sabbath” found in John’s Gospel.

Anyway, I hope this post has
helped clarify the issues that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections
were rational and I believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal
with this spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason
and rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the harmonious
balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon human reasoning
alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I believe that He has been my
Helper in this matter. My prayer for Troubleshooter now is that he might
see that his objections have been answered. The weight of Bible evidence
indicates that SDA's are correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is
not dependent on the lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the
cross conflict with this truth.

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-03-2009

#8

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GW

Now why does he think that AD 31 can
only qualify if we have a lunar cycle
Sabbath?

Would you be able to give
your view on the quote from Titus. Do you believe it's not true?

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07-04-2009

#9

Troubleshooter

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Defining the paradox...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Let me see if I can break this one
down for you Brother Greg.

I think
you have explained the issue well to Greg...
...I only have the
following comments...

Quote:

Troubleshooter has a problem with the Adventist
interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34 AD). The
particular bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD as the
year for the crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of Jesus’
death occurring in that year but he believes that the only
way that it can qualify as the year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th
day Sabbath was determined by the lunar cycle. Therefore he
concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his estimation,
our prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our belief
in the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can
only work if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the
lunar cycle. In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on
different days every month because the count would start once the
new moon’s crescent was seen. Therefore Troubleshooter thinks
that our holding to 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion is at odds
with the 7th day Sabbath occurring on the same day (Saturday)
throughout the year. (PS: Feel free to correct me Troubleshooter if
I have not accurately stated your objection)

This is not my problem, or about what I
believe or think...
...the paradox exists between what William Miller
believed and thought...
...and the type of Sabbath SDA's later
adopted.

The paradox is historical rather than theological or
spiritual...
...it did happen and it will remain a
paradox...
...while SDA's rest their origin on one basis and their
Sabbath reckoning on another.

Which method is the right one is
moot.

Quote:

Now why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify
if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath? Well to make a long story very
short it is apparent from the Scriptures that Jesus died on a
Friday. That Friday was the Passover and it was followed by the 7th
day Sabbath. We know this for certain because the Bible is very
clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See the end of
Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in
hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count
back in time to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have
occurred. According to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to
happen on the 14th day of the first Jewish month. So it appears that
he has concluded that one can simply count back 14 days from
Friday and figure out which day of the week the new moon had to have
occurred on in order to produce a Friday Passover. With that thought
in mind, he has concluded that the new moon didn’t happen on
the right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover because the
conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in March.
He has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the
full moon disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And
just for clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new
moon. The new moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth,
moon and sun are all in a straight line so that no light can be seen
reflecting off of the moon. When this would happen the Jews would
understand that it was close to the time to start a new month. Once
the crescent of the moon was seen reflecting light by witnesses a
confirmation process would happen in the Sanhedrin and a new month
would begin.

The problem with Troubleshooter’s theory
is that he does not acknowledge the human element in the equation.
The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and
the month could start at the end of those three days. There are also
a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date
of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain
how absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary
because ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31
AD actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when
one keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month. My post
entitled “And the wheels on the bus go round and round” evidences
this.

Again, the paradox exists between
two different methods for reckoning...
...the origin of the Advent
movement...
...and the reckoning of the Sabbath SDA's currently
observe.

Quote:

Now just to be technical let me give a bit of
clarification on another one of his statements.

Lest there
be any confusion on this matter the Passover ritual extended from
the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen White believed that the
Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the
day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the
setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the
trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The
Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom
it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s
tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the
Passover ritual will actually help clarify any confusion here. The
Passover lamb was to be slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st
month specifically “in the evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then
the flesh was eaten “in that night” (Ex 12:8). In other words
the Passover lamb was slain at the close of the 14th day and it was
eaten during the beginning of the 15th day. Hence the observation of
the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb) occurred while Jesus was
dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can accurately say that
the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because the lamb was
eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that Friday was
the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st month
and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we
think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications
but I hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you
are right in your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week
was both a 7th day Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations”
associated with the feast of unleavened bread. This is the most
likely explanation for the term “high Sabbath” found in John’s
Gospel.

In William Miller's reckoning
Sabbath did not necessarily mean Saturday.

Quote:

Anyway, I hope this post has helped clarify the issues
that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections were rational and I
believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal with this
spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason and
rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the
harmonious balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon
human reasoning alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I
believe that He has been my Helper in this matter. My prayer for
Troubleshooter now is that he might see that his objections have
been answered. The weight of Bible evidence indicates that SDA's
are correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is not dependent on
the lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the cross conflict
with this truth.

The paradox I have
outlined is a historical one...
...it can not be
'answered'...
...the anomally can only be acknowledged...
...the SDA
origin relied on a luni/solar calendar reckoning...
...the SDA Sabbath
relies on a weekly Julian/Gregorian calendar reckoning.

Thank you
for helping me to clearly define this paradox.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-04-2009 at 01:41
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07-04-2009

#10

Troubleshooter

Super Member

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 4,580

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Question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Ellen White believed that the
Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the
day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the
setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the
trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The
Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom
it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s
tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

Can
you help me answer this question:
Do you know anywhere that Ellen uses
the word 'Friday', 'Saturday' or 'Sunday' in conjunction with the Passover
and Jesus death and resurrection?..
...I see her using 'preparation'
and 'Sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the assumption is usually made
what day she means...
...but do you know of anywhere that she actually
says Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-04-2009 at 02:40
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07-14-2009

#11

Troubleshooter

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Reputation: 579

Bump for Gospel_Way nt

Quote:

Originally Posted by troubleshooter

can you help me answer this
question:
Do you know anywhere that ellen uses the word
'friday', 'saturday' or 'sunday' in conjunction with the passover
and jesus death and resurrection?..
...i see her using
'preparation' and 'sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the
assumption is usually made what day she means...
...but do you
know of anywhere that she actually says friday, saturday,
sunday?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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07-14-2009

#12

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: Do you know anywhere that Ellen
uses the word 'Friday', 'Saturday' or 'Sunday' in conjunction with
the Passover and Jesus death and resurrection?..
...I see her
using 'preparation' and 'Sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the
assumption is usually made what day she means...
...but do you
know of anywhere that she actually says Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

I do not think you will find any quote
where she uses “Friday, Saturday and Sunday” sequentially at the same
time. However a brief perusal of her writings on the matter show that this
was her belief.

Christ died on a Friday

“From
eyewitnesses some of the disciples had obtained quite a full account of
the events of Friday. Others beheld the scenes of the
crucifixion with their own eyes. In the afternoon of the first day
of the week, two of the disciples, restless and unhappy, decided to
return to their home in Emmaus, a village about eight miles from
Jerusalem” (Christ Triumphant pg 295)

Friday is the
preparation day

While preparation for the Sabbath is to be
made all through the week, Friday is to be the special preparation
day (Counsels for the Church pg 263)

Saturday is the
Sabbath

Elder Bates was resting upon Saturday, the
seventh day of the week, and he urged it upon our attention as the
true Sabbath. I did not feel its importance, and thought that he erred in
dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine.
(Christian Experience and Views of Ellen White pg 85)

The
temptation will come. If you keep the Sabbath, the very day the fourth
commandment has specified, you shall have to give up this source of
gain. You shall have to close your business on Saturday, the
busiest and most profitable day in the week. And when you hesitate to
comply with a plain "Thus saith the Lord," because you will lose profit,
and riches will not increase unto you, you continue in disobedience to God
and bow the knee to Satan as he tempted Christ to do. (Manuscript
Releases Vol 17 pg 79)

Saturday is the 7th day of the week and
Sunday is the 1st day

I explained to them that Sunday is
the first day, and that the day called Saturday by the world is the
seventh day…I told them that Christ kept the Sabbath, and that the
women rested on the seventh day, “according to the commandment,” and on
the first day of the week brought spices and ointment to His
sepulcher. (EGW: The Early Elmshaven Years pg 330)

Christ
resurrected on Sunday

Protestants now urge that the
resurrection of Christ on Sunday made it the Christian Sabbath. But
Scripture evidence is lacking. No such honor was given to the day by
Christ or his apostles (The Great Controversy pg 54)

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-04-2009

#13

Troubleshooter

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Just curious...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

...The Jews had a three day range
from the astronomical new moon and the month could start at the
end of those three days. There are also a couple of other
potential factors involved with the starting date of the Jewish
month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how absolutely
complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because ironically
enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually work
for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in
mind the 3-day range for starting the
month.

GW, what is your source for
this 'three-day range' theory?

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07-05-2009

#14

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

GW, what is your source for this
'three-day range' theory?

The sources
for my theory are two-fold. The immediate source and the one which I
included in the former post is from the Encyclopedia
Brittanica:

“The difficulty with regard to the day is, quite
similarly, to know what precise relation the first day of the Jewish month
bore to the astronomical new moon. In later Christian times the Paschal
month was calculated from the astronomical new moon; in earlier Jewish
times all month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new
moon was visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some
hours, and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the
astronomical new moon.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3.
pg 890)

Now going into a bit more detail here I will share my
rationale.

1) The calendars that you provided by which you attempt
to rule out 31 AD as a possible year for the crucifixion of Christ use the
astronomical new moon. The problem with that is that they do not take into
account that the new moon crescent is sometimes not visible for a few days
surrounding the conjunction nor does it reckon the human factor and time
involved (i.e. the testimony before the Sanhedrin)

“When the moon
is in perigee and her motion quickest, she does not usually appear
until the 2nd day; nor in apogee when her slowest until the 4th
(Old Greek Astronomy. Geminus, B.C. 60. See Hales pg 67)

“After the
moon’s conjunction, it is generally 2 days or more before any part of
her lighted surface is visible” (Dick’s Solar System II.5 pg
51)

"The moon is not visible from the earth (unless during a solar
eclipse) for a period of about one-and-one-half to three-and-one-half
days surrounding the time of the lunar conjunction." (I'm sorry I
lost the source for this quote but I will scrounge around and see if I can
find it. I included it because it was in with the rest of the
quotes)

“As [the moon] gets farther away from the sun the
percentage of its illuminated surface facing the Earth increases and one
evening shortly after sunset the moon is seen anew after being invisible
for 1.5-3.5 days.” (Taken from the article “New Moon” on the
karaite-korner website)

"The Muslims were told that the moon
normally takes 2-3 days to become visible over the populated
regions of the globe. Depending on the most northerly or southerly
ecliptic latitude the moon sometimes may not be seen until five days after
the conjunction" (Taken from the islamicmoon website)

"Another
predicament is created by the use of the conjunction because during the
period surrounding the conjunction there are as many as two or even
three nights when no moon is visible." (Taken from the article “What
is the New Moon” by Yahweh Restoration Ministries)

All of these
quotes indicate to me that starting from the astronomical new moon is an
inaccurate method of trying to determine the Passover date in the first
century. The SDA Bible commentary also mentions that 3 days and and 4
hours is a "possible interval after the astronomical new moon" (SDA
BC Vol 5. pg 252)

The great likelihood is that the Jews of Jesus'
day would not be starting from the astronomical new moon but rather from a
sighting of the new moon's crescent. The various quotes I have examined on
the matter indicate that this would normally happen somewhere between 1 to
3 days after the astronomical conjunction. Hence my theory of a 3 day
range.

"Although the date and time of each New Moon can be computed
exactly, the visibility of the lunar crescent as a function of the Moon's
"age" - the time counted from New Moon - depends upon many factors and
cannot be predicted with certainty. In the first two days after New
Moon, the young crescent Moon appears very low in the western sky after
sunset, and must be viewed through bright twilight. It sets shortly after
sunset. The sighting of the lunar crescent within one day of New Moon
is usually difficult. (Taken from an article by the Astronomical
Applications Department of the U.S. Naval Observatory “FAQ about the
Moon’s Crescents”)

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-06-2009

#15

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Let me see if I can break this one
down for you Brother Greg.

Troubleshooter has a problem with
the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34
AD). The particular bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD
as the year for the crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of
Jesus’ death occurring in that year but he believes that the only
way that it can qualify as the year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th
day Sabbath was determined by the lunar cycle. Therefore he
concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his estimation, our
prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our belief in
the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can only work
if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the lunar cycle.
In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on different days
every month because the count would start once the new moon’s
crescent was seen. Therefore Troubleshooter thinks that our holding
to 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion is at odds with the 7th day
Sabbath occurring on the same day (Saturday) throughout the year.
(PS: Feel free to correct me Troubleshooter if I have not accurately
stated your objection)

Now why does he think that AD 31 can
only qualify if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath? Well to make a long
story very short it is apparent from the Scriptures that Jesus died
on a Friday. That Friday was the Passover and it was followed by the
7th day Sabbath. We know this for certain because the Bible is very
clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See the end of
Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in
hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count back in
time to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have
occurred. According to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to
happen on the 14th day of the first Jewish month. So it appears that
he has concluded that one can simply count back 14 days from Friday
and figure out which day of the week the new moon had to have
occurred on in order to produce a Friday Passover. With that thought
in mind, he has concluded that the new moon didn’t happen on the
right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover because the
conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in March. He
has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the full moon
disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And just for
clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new moon. The
new moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth, moon and sun
are all in a straight line so that no light can be seen reflecting
off of the moon. When this would happen the Jews would understand
that it was close to the time to start a new month. Once the
crescent of the moon was seen reflecting light by witnesses a
confirmation process would happen in the Sanhedrin and a new month
would begin.

The problem with Troubleshooter’s theory is
that he does not acknowledge the human element in the equation. The
Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and the
month could start at the end of those three days. There are also a
couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date of
the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how
absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because
ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD
actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one
keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month. My post
entitled “And the wheels on the bus go round and round” evidences
this.

Now just to be technical let me give a bit of
clarification on another one of his statements.

Lest there
be any confusion on this matter the Passover ritual extended from
the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen White believed that the
Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the
day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the
setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the
trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The
Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom
it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s
tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the
Passover ritual will actually help clarify any confusion here. The
Passover lamb was to be slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st
month specifically “in the evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then
the flesh was eaten “in that night” (Ex 12:8). In other words
the Passover lamb was slain at the close of the 14th day and it was
eaten during the beginning of the 15th day. Hence the observation of
the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb) occurred while Jesus was
dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can accurately say that
the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because the lamb was
eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that Friday was
the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st month
and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we
think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications
but I hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you
are right in your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week
was both a 7th day Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations”
associated with the feast of unleavened bread. This is the most
likely explanation for the term “high Sabbath” found in John’s
Gospel.

Anyway, I hope this post has helped clarify the
issues that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections were rational
and I believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal with
this spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason
and rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the
harmonious balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon
human reasoning alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I
believe that He has been my Helper in this matter. My prayer for
Troubleshooter now is that he might see that his objections have
been answered. The weight of Bible evidence indicates that SDA's are
correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is not dependent on the
lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the cross conflict
with this truth.

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

Thank you for
the feedback. I pray for Sabbath understanding by faith for our
friends.

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07-05-2009

#16

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: The two Julian calendar months are
the heart of the 'scholars' data for ruling out 31 AD.

As my former posts have amply
demonstrated, the methods whereby certain scholars have ruled out 31 AD as
the year of the crucifixion of Christ are suspect. They presuppose too
much in terms of calculating the Passover date. When one considers that
the Jews of Jesus’ day were likely counting their month from the sighting
of the new moon's crescent and not the astronomical new moon, this gives
us a interval for the starting date of the 1st month that makes AD 31 a
viable option.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: So far all you have given me is
bluster about why any date can't be accurately established...which
only works against your position.

I find
this quote to be a bit ironic. If I understand our dialogue correctly, I
am defending the year 31 AD for Jesus’ crucifixion. You are asserting that
I am in a paradox because 31 AD and the 7th day Sabbath are incompatible.
Your proof for this is an argument based on the date of the astronomical
new moon in 31 AD and the perceived impossibility of it equaling out to
the necessary Friday/Sabbath Passover associated with the cross. My entire
conversation with you has a rebuttal of that theory. In other words, you
have been trying to disqualify 31 AD and I have been trying to show you
why your attempt to disqualify it doesn’t work.

Now if your
calendar for April 31 AD is accurate then I would say that it is likely
that Jesus died on Friday, April 27th 31 AD shortly after 3 PM. The
information about the year (31 AD) the day (Friday) and the hour (3 PM)
are all derived from the Scriptures (Daniel 9:27; Luke 23:54 and Matt
27:45 respectively) but I will not venture to speak with absolute
certainty regarding the month and date according to the Gregorian
calendar.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: I have no date preference and I
don't need to establish my religious prophetic origin...through
dubious date-setting schemes.

Then why so
much argumentation against Adventists holding to 31 AD? Earlier on you
stated that it may very well be the crucifixion year.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: The year 31 AD may well be the
crucifixion year...

If you can accept this
as a possible year for the crucifixion then why is there a problem that I
hold to it? Is it because of I believe in the validity of both 31 AD and
the weekly 7th day Sabbath? Again, just as you have presented your theory
as to why 31 AD and the Passover/7th day Sabbath are an impossibility I
have presented one showing that it is possible.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: What is your case for 31 AD?

Now we are getting to the real meat of the
matter. Before we really get into this I have to ask how deep do you want
me to get? You have made mention of "dubious time-setting schemes" and I
believe that such a categorization is trite and unfounded. This issue is
not one that I have reached my conclusion on lightly. What I am
considering is to take you through my rationale in regard to the timeline
of Daniel 9. That would involve the following

1) Establishing
Artaxerxes’ decree as the correct one to begin the 490 year prophecy. I
believe this can be done by examining the Word of God carefully and also
by establishing the mathematical impossibility of any other
decree

2) Displaying from archeology the validity of 457 BC as the
year of that decree. This will take quite some time and we will have to
examine many different things (i.e. ascension vs. non-ascension reckoning
systems, Ptolemy’s canon, double-dated papyri).

3) Showing how the
specifications of Daniel’s prophecy are met in the New Testament and how
the 457 BC start for the timeline of Daniel 9 is the only one that fits
the New Testament chronology.

This will be quite the process if we
intend to do it thoroughly. If you are seriously interested in my case for
31 AD, I will start a new thread and go through it step by step for your
evaluation. If you are open to the possibility that the 457 BC -27,31,34
AD timeline may be correct and I believe the weight of Bible evidence
indicates that this is so then I will proceed. If you are not, for
whatever reason (i.e. the Sabbath/Passover contention that we have
discussed), then I will not. If I were retired or if I had lots of free
time I would go ahead anyway but I have signed a new contract with my
employer and my work responsibilities have again increased. Thus I must be
very careful with my time from henceforth. I await your response and I
will be keeping you in my prayers this evening. As always I am
happily…

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-05-2009

#17

Troubleshooter

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Do it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

...If you are seriously interested
in my case for 31 AD, I will start a new thread and go through it
step by step for your evaluation. If you are open to the possibility
that the 457 BC -27,31,34 AD timeline may be correct and I believe
the weight of Bible evidence indicates that this is so then I will
proceed. If you are not, for whatever reason (i.e. the
Sabbath/Passover contention that we have discussed), then I will
not. If I were retired or if I had lots of free time I would go
ahead anyway but I have signed a new contract with my employer and
my work responsibilities have again increased. Thus I must be very
careful with my time from henceforth. I await your response and I
will be keeping you in my prayers this evening. As always I am
happily...

I would like you to
thoroughly present your case for 31 AD...
...I have been trying to get
an SDA to do this for months.

Please promise me though that you
will not sacrifice scholarship...
...to support your religious
presuppositions...
...like Grace Amadon did it researching this
issue.

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07-08-2009

#18

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I would like you to thoroughly
present your case for 31 AD...
...I have been trying to get an
SDA to do this for months.

Please promise me though that you
will not sacrifice scholarship...
...to support your religious
presuppositions...
...like Grace Amadon did it researching this
issue.

I've
been reading the Babylonian Talmud about specifi rules and came
upon a section dealing with what one should do if he would become lost in
the desert or wild area and forget when the Sabbath was to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talmud, chapter 7 on
Shabbat

Said Rabha again: "If he only
recollects the number of days he has been travelling, he may labor
all day on the eighth day of his journey, in any event" (for he surely did not start on his journey on a
Sabbath). Is this not self-evident?

Now, I'm convinced that the
arguments for the lunar seem to be reasonable, especially when one
considers a well known Catholic Church Father (Clement) explicitly stated
that it did.

However, that said, I have finally got an email back
from a real Karaite Jew who is an authority for that order of Judaism and
he claims that the reason the Karaite Jews observe the same period for
Shabbat is because he believes it indeed is on Saturday?

One thing
is for certain, the Sanhedrin, once they are again established, will fix
the calendar and no one is certain of those ramifications.

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07-08-2009

#19

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I've been reading the
Babylonian Talmud about specifi rules and came upon a section
dealing with what one should do if he would become lost in the
desert or wild area and forget when the Sabbath was to
be.

Now, I'm convinced that the arguments for the lunar seem
to be reasonable, especially when one considers a well known
Catholic Church Father (Clement) explicitly stated that it did.

However, that said, I have finally got an email back from a
real Karaite Jew who is an authority for that order of Judaism and
he claims that the reason the Karaite Jews observe the same period
for Shabbat is because he believes it indeed is on Saturday?

One thing is for certain, the Sanhedrin, once they are again
established, will fix the calendar and no one is certain of those
ramifications.

I am also coming to
the realization that the calendar the Lord established for Israel was a
Lunar calendar...
...it makes sense that if the Lord said to
Moses...
..."This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it
shall be the first month of the year to you." Exodus 12:2...
...and
followed this with specific days set according to the month (literally
moonth) cycle...
...In the tenth day of this month they
shall take to them every man a lamb" Exodus 12:3...
..."...keep it up
until the fourteenth day of the same month:" Exodus
12:6...
...it is also reasonable that 'weekly' Sabbaths would be set to
occur according to the same calendar reckoning.

The Julian calendar
was a solar calendar and was not introduced until 46 BC by Julius
Caesar...
...so why would the Lord have given Moses Sabbath reckoning
by that method.

It is entirely reasonable to see why secular
calendar calculations were periodically altered to reflect national,
global and commercial interests...
...and that religious interests in
time standardized their systems to suit...
...but this is not how the
Lord established it for Israel's salvation history.

It seems the
Lord knew or even planned that it would be
forgotten...

Lamentations 2:6 "And he hath violently taken away his
tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the
assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be
forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger
the king and the priest."

If indeed it is true, it certainly makes
a joke of the endless Sunday/Saturday debates.

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07-08-2009

#20

Greg Goodchild

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It is quite simple, the 7th day of the week
is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of the week is
Sunday - Sunday is not the Sabbath.

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07-08-2009

#21

Victor

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sabbath on a Wednesday!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

It is quite simple, the 7th day of
the week is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of
the week is Sunday - Sunday is not the
Sabbath.

You haven't been paying
attention to this thread, Greg.
If the first day of the week comes
right after Wednesday, then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday
from the previous week's reckoning anymore.

__________________
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but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He
who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly?
- Lord Byron

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07-08-2009

#22

Troubleshooter

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Sigh! nt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

You haven't been paying attention to
this thread, Greg.
If the first day of the week comes right after
Wednesday, then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday from the
previous week's reckoning
anymore.

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07-08-2009

#23

BrianL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

It is quite simple, the 7th day of
the week is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of
the week is Sunday - Sunday is not the
Sabbath.

Yes, the 7th day of our
Gregorian week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week
Sunday?

In Christ,
Brian

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whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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07-08-2009

#24

commen tater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

Yes, the 7th day of our Gregorian
week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week
Sunday?

In
Christ,
Brian

Dear
Brian,

Just so I know where you are coming from on this. Are you,
by any chance, a rabbinical literalist?

Tater

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07-08-2009

#25

BrianL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Dear Brian,

Just so I know
where you are coming from on this. Are you, by any chance, a
rabbinical literalist?

Tater

I
dunno, you'd have to ask Greg Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical
Purist.

In Christ,
Brian

__________________
It is the
whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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07-08-2009

#26

commen tater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

I dunno, you'd have to ask Greg
Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical Purist.

In
Christ,
Brian

Well, please
understand where I'm coming from. I don't see the point in using words
like "marmalade" if we are having trouble spelling "jam".

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07-08-2009

#27

BrianL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Well, please understand where I'm
coming from. I don't see the point in using words like "marmalade"
if we are having trouble spelling
"jam".

Agreed.

In
Christ,
Brian

__________________
It is the
whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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07-09-2009

#28

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Well, please understand where I'm
coming from. I don't see the point in using words like "marmalade"
if we are having trouble spelling
"jam".

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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07-10-2009

#29

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

I dunno, you'd have to ask Greg
Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical Purist.

In
Christ,
Brian

After reading
the Bible as much as you do, can you not detect Pharisaical thinking,
reading, reasoning? Jesus allowed us to have many examples in the NT. He
gave us these examples for a reason. Learn what it is and then don't
follow it. Learn how Jesus' reasons, speaks, thinks. He is much safer than
the Pharisees.

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07-10-2009

#30

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

Yes, the 7th day of our Gregorian
week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week
Sunday?

In
Christ,
Brian

Yes, Because The
Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are pretty good at counting. Jesus was
not confused by Gregorian calenders.

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07-10-2009

#31

BrianL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

was the 1st day of the 1st
(creation) week Sunday?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Yes

Scripture
Please!

In Christ,
Brian

__________________
It is the
whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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07-10-2009

#32

Greg Goodchild

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Genesis 1:5 "...and the evenng and the
morning were the first day.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath
as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week..."

We know
what day is the seventh day, and we call the first day of the week Sunday,
today. The first day is the day after the 7th day. I don't particularly
care what name you call first day. Biblically 1st day is the official name
of the 1st day of the week. 6th day is Preparation day, and the 7th day is
the Sabbath.

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07-10-2009

#33

Victor

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not paying attention to the thesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Genesis 1:5 "...and the evenng and
the morning were the first day.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of
the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week..."

We know what day is the seventh day, and we call the
first day of the week Sunday, today. The first day is the day after
the 7th day. I don't particularly care what name you call first day.
Biblically 1st day is the official name of the 1st day of the week.
6th day is Preparation day, and the 7th day is the
Sabbath.

I still think you haven't
read this thread carefully enough to determine that the new month was
established by the new moon, and the thesis is that when the month began,
so did a new week. As I wrote to you earlier:

Quote:

If the first day of the week comes right after Wednesday,
then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday from the previous
week's reckoning anymore.

That is, the
last day of the month was some random day, and then the new moon would
proclaim the new day to be Sunday (not by name, of course).
That breaks
the continuous cycles of seven-day weeks, and you can't count them with
the assumption that they were continuous.

__________________
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that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh
but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He
who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly?
- Lord Byron

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07-08-2009

#34

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I am also coming to the realization
that the calendar the Lord established for Israel was a Lunar
calendar...
...it makes sense that if the Lord said to
Moses...
..."This month shall be unto you the beginning of
months: it shall be the first month of the year to you." Exodus
12:2...
...and followed this with specific days set according to
the month (literally moonth) cycle...
...In the tenth
day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb"
Exodus 12:3...
..."...keep it up until the fourteenth day
of the same month:" Exodus 12:6...
...it is also reasonable that
'weekly' Sabbaths would be set to occur according to the same
calendar reckoning.

The Julian calendar was a solar calendar
and was not introduced until 46 BC by Julius Caesar...
...so why
would the Lord have given Moses Sabbath reckoning by that
method.

It is entirely reasonable to see why secular calendar
calculations were periodically altered to reflect national, global
and commercial interests...
...and that religious interests in
time standardized their systems to suit...
...but this is not how
the Lord established it for Israel's salvation history.

It
seems the Lord knew or even planned that it would be
forgotten...

Lamentations 2:6 "And he hath violently taken
away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed
his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn
feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised
in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."

If
indeed it is true, it certainly makes a joke of the endless
Sunday/Saturday debates.

I've
got some heavy weights in the area of Catholic Apologetics who I've asked
for some help in this area. That Clement speaks of this literally settles
the issue for me. The fact that I've not been answered on my questions
other then "intersting" , "will get back to you" tells me these people
certainly felt it was worth looking at.

I wonder if there are very
many people within Adventism that are going gang busters into the study of
this? I'm guessing that SDA Pastors will be having their hands full within
a year, given the implications.

The thing that jumped out at me
was how the Homily from Clement exactly reflected why Christians are not
to stress out over not observing the Law of Moses whereas Sabbath is
concerned. It's just I never realized that the Sanhedrin controlled the
New Moon, thus controlled when the 8th day would hit and every seven
thereafter.

I keep reading about this woman who did all the
research. Where can I read the whole work word for word?

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07-08-2009

#35

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I've got some heavy weights in the
area of Catholic Apologetics who I've asked for some help in this
area. That Clement speaks of this literally settles the issue for
me. The fact that I've not been answered on my questions other then
"intersting" , "will get back to you" tells me these people
certainly felt it was worth looking at.

I wonder if there
are very many people within Adventism that are going gang busters
into the study of this? I'm guessing that SDA Pastors will be having
their hands full within a year, given the implications.

The
thing that jumped out at me was how the Homily from Clement exactly
reflected why Christians are not to stress out over not observing
the Law of Moses whereas Sabbath is concerned. It's just I never
realized that the Sanhedrin controlled the New Moon, thus controlled
when the 8th day would hit and every seven thereafter.

I
keep reading about this woman who did all the research. Where can I
read the whole work word for
word?

Grace Amadon's collection is
listed at the following address...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/toc.php

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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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07-09-2009

#36

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Grace Amadon's collection is listed
at the following address...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/toc.php

I
just completed reading it. That is one monster report. It's very telling
that M.L. Andreasen insisted that a "gag order"
be placed on the report
until such time as it's re-wording so that they might be able to prove the
calculations used to reach 1844 without causing great alarm to the SDA
church by letting them know what else the report confirmed. I finally get
it.

The other thing that was strange was that, according to
history, Saturn's day (Saturday) WAS the first day of the
week.

Last edited by pythons; 07-09-2009 at 07:47
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07-10-2009

#37

jaman

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My interest in this has encouraged me to
register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been interesting to
say the least.

Basically it seems very logical and believable
except for thee basic points.

1. 29 day months work fine with
the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day
month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then the
New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly.

2.
Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were created on the 4th
day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a
full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's first full day?

3. The
fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't work using this system
unless you consider New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they
are not included in the count.

Interested in the opinion of others
on these questions.

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07-10-2009

#38

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

My interest in this has encouraged
me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been
interesting to say the least.

Basically it seems very logical
and believable except for thee basic points.

1. 29 day
months work fine with the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon
day Sabbath, but on a 30 day month you have the 29th day Sabbath
followed by a work day and then the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems
illogical to put it mildly.

As I
understand it, the way it's done is that there remains a cycle of a 7 day
week. The month closes itself out by conjuction. I don't think they are
viewing the New Moon day as a Sabbath, it's simply a blank
day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

2. Whereas the heavens and the moon
in particular were created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on
the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day,
Adam and Eve's first full day?

Their
logic is that God "appointed" the moon. I have not read where they said
when God appointed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman

3. The fifty day countdown to
pentecost really doesn't work using this system unless you consider
New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they are not
included in the count.

Interested in the opinion of others on
these questions.

According to what I
have read they are non-days. This is what the big beef with the SDA Amadon
report is, if I understand it correctly. I read the whole report whereas
the group claimed the 1844 doctrine was given a perfect bill of heath
whereas the math was concerned IF lunar calendation was used. To pinpoint
the D.O.A. (the 22nd of Oct) the group was forced to "not count
days".

It says right in the report that the Church must loudly
proclaim this great truth or dump the whole thing because without the I.J.
the SDA Church does not exist. It is a paradox.

Yeah, it's
pretty strange stuff isn't it. IMHO the majority of it is wasted effort as
all those kinds of things terminated at the cross. Did you read the
report?

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07-10-2009

#39

jaman

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"The first day of the lunar month was
observed as a holy day. In addition to the daily sacrifice there were
offered two young bullocks, a ram and seven lambs of the first year as a
burnt offering, with the proper meat offerings and drink offerings, and a
kid as a sin offering. Num 28:11-15. As on the Sabbath, trade and
handicraft work were stopped, Amos 8:5, and the temple was opened for
public worship. Isa 66:23; Ezek 46:3. The trumpets were blown at the
offering of the special sacrifices for the day, as on the solemn
festivals. Num 10:10; Ps 81:3. It was an occasion for state banquets. 1
Sam 20:5- 24. In later, if not in earlier times, fasting was intermitted
at the new moons. The new moons are generally
mentioned so as to show that they were regarded as a peculiar class of
holy days, distinguished from the solemn feasts and the Sabbaths.
. . . The religious observance of the day of the new
moon may plainly be regarded as the consecration of a natural division of
time.

An indication that the New Moon sabbaths were actually
considered to be higher than the seventh-day Sabbath is the additional
sacrifices offered that day."

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07-10-2009

#40

Troubleshooter

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Let there be light...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

My interest in this has encouraged
me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been
interesting to say the least.

Welcome
to the forum Jaman, appreciate your contribution.

I had not
considered this topic until a couple of months ago...
...I first asked
questions about the date of the crucifixion...
...and no current SDA
had an answer to why 31 AD was a viable date...
...other than it
'worked' with 1844.

I have still not had an SDA provide a credible
answer that satisfies all the biblical criteria...
...while assuming a
Julian/Gregorian calendar reckoning...
...and I am convinced they never
will.

I think now that the weekly Sabbath was as much a part of the
sacrificial system detailed by the Lord to Moses...
...as was the
sacrifice of the lamb and the role of the priest.

Quote:

Basically it seems very logical and believable except for
thee basic points.

1. 29 day months work fine with the 29th
day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day
month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then
the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly.

It is easy to think something is illogical
when it is just unfamiliar.

My only question is...is it true
history?

Quote:

2. Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were
created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3
days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's
first full day?

We only have the evidence
of one week at creation...
...so it is impossible to extrapolate beyond
that historical week.

The first thing God said when He started
creation was "Let there be light" Genesis 1:3

Each month begins
with the 'light' of a New Moon...
...is it such a stretch to see a
replay of the creation each new month...
...especially when it is
possible to demonstrate that at least the first three months post-Exodus
unfolded this way.

Wow what an amazing piece of
theatre...
...replaying the creation and rehearsing the
re-creation/redemption each New Moon.

Quote:

3. The fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't
work using this system unless you consider New Moon days to be
effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they are not included in the count.

Good article here...The Count to
Pentecost...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/TheCountPentecost.pdf

Hope
we see more of you here Jaman.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-10-2009 at 02:15
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