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> Seventh Day
Adventism

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

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06-04-2009

#1

Troubleshooter

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Still no answer...

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day
Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily
answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the
unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."

Adventist Yearbook
1883 (capitalization emphasis in original)

What they meant by
'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian
Friday in A.D. 31...
...it remains a problem for which they have no
answer.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-04-2009 at 09:50
AM..

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06-07-2009

#2

peg

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Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

"Those who disbelieve in the
seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of
which are readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS.
This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible
Sabbath."

Adventist Yearbook 1883 (capitalization emphasis in
original)

Trouble -

The way
you wrote this I'm just not sure...
Is the above a
quotation from Adventist Yearbook?

Pegg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

What they meant by 'Bible Sabbath'
was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian Friday in
A.D. 31...
...it remains a problem for which they have no
answer.

__________________
Then...Jesus asked them a
question: "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son
is He?"
Matt. 22:41-42

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06-07-2009

#3

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Trouble -

The way you wrote
this I'm just not sure...
Is the above a quotation
from Adventist Yearbook?

Pegg

There
is a copy of that page from the Adventist Yearbook here. That statement is at the bottom left corner. The
issue that Troubleshooter has raised is discussed in an article on that same site, which apparently advocates
lunar Sabbath observance.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-07-2009

#4

peg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

There is a copy of that page from
the Adventist Yearbook here. That statement is at the bottom left corner.
The issue that Troubleshooter has raised is discussed in an article on that same site, which apparently
advocates lunar Sabbath
observance.

Well if that isn't a
hoot...! nt

__________________
Then...Jesus asked them a
question: "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son
is He?"
Matt. 22:41-42

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06-08-2009

#5

Troubleshooter

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Adventist Yearbook

Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Trouble -

The way you wrote
this I'm just not sure...
Is the above a quotation
from Adventist Yearbook?

Pegg

Hi
Peg, you can find a copy of the original on the General Conference website
here...
http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=77&SortBy=2&ShowDateOrder=True

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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06-07-2009

#6

Sophia7

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Troubleshooter, I went to the Karaite Korner
site and read their explanations about lunar dating of the holy days.
However, they do not list the weekly Sabbath as a holy day or holiday, so
there is no explicit statement about whether they observe a lunar Sabbath.
I think it would be inconsistent if they didn't, but it's not spelled out
on their site, and I haven't yet found any other sites that address it.
I'm just wondering if you have any documentation on that.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-08-2009

#7

Troubleshooter

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Karaites ain't Karaites

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Troubleshooter, I went to the
Karaite Korner site and read their explanations about lunar dating
of the holy days. However, they do not list the weekly Sabbath as a
holy day or holiday, so there is no explicit statement about whether
they observe a lunar Sabbath. I think it would be inconsistent if
they didn't, but it's not spelled out on their site, and I haven't
yet found any other sites that address it. I'm just wondering if you
have any documentation on
that.

Karaites are sometime described
as Jewish Protestants...
...they believe essentially in sola-scripture
OT.

Modern Karaites are not what they used to be...
...or as
they were even at the time of William Miller...
...all Karaites ain't
Karaites.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-08-2009 at 09:57
AM..

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06-08-2009

#8

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Karaites are sometime described as
Jewish Protestants...
...they believe essentially in
sola-scripture OT.

Modern Karaites are not what they used to
be...
...or as they were even at the time of William
Miller...
...all Karaites ain't Karaites.

Do
you know where I can find information about the Sabbath practices of
non-modern Karaites? I didn't see anything in my search to indicate
whether they or modern Karaites observed lunar Sabbaths.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-08-2009

#9

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Do you know where I can find
information about the Sabbath practices of non-modern Karaites? I
didn't see anything in my search to indicate whether they or modern
Karaites observed lunar Sabbaths.

Hi
Sophia, I have been focusing on the biblical case for lunar
Sabbaths.

I would like to know what William Miller understood about
the Karaites...
...Grace Amadon seems to have had the inside track on
that...
...a copy of her entire collection is in a secure research
facility at Andrews apparently

Jewish sources seem to support the
contention.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically
recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the
Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle” (Universal Jewish
Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath the
feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the
work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths became
preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30
days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days, although
sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly assigned
to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life. The
connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later]
discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious
Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

I will post more info as I find
it.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-08-2009

#10

Sophia7

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That site that I linked to in post 23 has
some material from the Grace Amadon Collection, but I haven't had a chance
to read much of it yet. From what I have read on that and other sites, it
appears that the Karaites in 1844 were not following the lunar model very
closely. The Millerites must have calculated their dates based on what the
Karaites would have been doing if they had stuck to the
new-moon/barley-harvest timing, not on what they were actually doing at
that time.

I suppose the Sabbath wasn't really on Miller's radar
since he was never a sabbatarian, but it would have been rather
inconsistent of the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers to accept Karaite
dating for 1844 and A.D. 31 but not for the weekly Sabbath if, indeed, the
Karaites practiced lunar Sabbath observance. Then again, Adventism adopted
only a couple of Miller's proofs anyway, which of course originally
pointed to 1843, and ignored those that didn't fit into their newly
constructed prophetic framework. Selectivity in Adventist interpretations
is nothing new.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-09-2009

#11

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

That site that I linked to in post
23 has some material from the Grace Amadon Collection, but I haven't
had a chance to read much of it yet. From what I have read on that
and other sites, it appears that the Karaites in 1844 were not
following the lunar model very closely. The Millerites must have
calculated their dates based on what the Karaites would have been
doing if they had stuck to the new-moon/barley-harvest timing, not
on what they were actually doing at that
time.

Yes, I think that is an
excellent insight...
...William Miller employed the Karaite lunar
calendar idea rather than the systems observed by the Karaites in the
early 1800's.

Quote:

I suppose the Sabbath wasn't really on Miller's radar
since he was never a sabbatarian, but it would have been rather
inconsistent of the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers to accept Karaite
dating for 1844 and A.D. 31 but not for the weekly Sabbath if,
indeed, the Karaites practiced lunar Sabbath observance. Then again,
Adventism adopted only a couple of Miller's proofs anyway, which of
course originally pointed to 1843, and ignored those that didn't fit
into their newly constructed prophetic framework. Selectivity in
Adventist interpretations is nothing new.

William Miller was not concerned about the
Sabbath...
...or the crucifixion...
...his focus was on the accurate
termination of the 2300 days/years...
...so it is not clear if he
applied the lunar Sabbath to the 31 AD date.

It seems he may have
only seen 27 AD as the beginning of John the Baptists ministry and not
Jesus baptism...
...and 31 AD as the beginning of Jesus ministry not
His crucifixion...
...so he too was either selective or in the heat of
the moment did not consider it...
...William Miller seems to have still
held to a 33 AD crucifixion...
...because of the need to coincide a
Friday/Sabbath/Passover.

Grace Amadon saw the lunar Sabbath
solution for a 31 AD crucifixion...
...but seems to have resisted the
obvious implications for the weekly Sabbath.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-19-2009

#12

Troubleshooter

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Bumped for Gospel_Way

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed
Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to
the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William
Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis
for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day after the New Moon was the first day of the
month...
...this was called a holy convocation''…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite
calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each
month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

The
lunar year began with the month Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was
calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the
Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th
Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full
moon…
…this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly
Sabbath.

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a
Sabbath.

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a
Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only
group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the
basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844
origin.

The Karaite calendar is the only objective reason to
support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar
calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous
successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian
calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day
Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite
calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-19-2009

#13

Gospel_Way

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In this post, I believe you are confusing the
Hebrew religious calendar with the civil calendar. Besides the fact that I
cannot find any documentation that Karaites based the 7th day Sabbath from
the lunar cycle there are several other problems inherent in your post.

1) According to the Bible, the weekly cycle of 7 days runs
independently of the monthly and annual cycles.

Quote:

The Hebrew calendar follows a seven-day weekly cycle,
which runs concurrently but independently of the monthly and annual
cycles (See Wikipedia: Hebrew Calendar)

This truth is apparent even from the
Genesis narrative because the sun and moon come into existence on the 4th
day, not the 1st. The 7 day week does not begin with their rotation but it
began independently of these heavenly bodies. (See Gen 1:14-19)

2)
The 7th day Sabbath was observed before the annual festivals were
commanded (See Exodus 16) and it was commanded based on the 6 work days
followed by 7th day rest of God at creation (See Exodus 20:8-11).

These Scriptures show the week and the corresponding 7th day
Sabbath to be independent of the moon’s rotation and based upon the Divine
time sequence of 6 days followed by the 7th day of rest.

3) The
Jews had a civil calendar of an ancient order which they followed before
their religious calendar (7th month long) came into effect. They continued
using this calendar alongside with the religious calendar.

“That the Jews must have had a system of intercalculation by
which the lunar calendar was brought into harmony with the natural solar
year is implied in the law regarding the Passover fearst. This law
required that the feast be kept unchangeably in the middle of the first
month (Lev 23:5) but also connected it with the barley harvest by
requiring the offering of a sheaf of the firstfruits (Lev 23:10,11). Thus
the calendar was probably corrected by the insertion of embolismic months
whenever needed to let the Passover occur at the beginning of the barley
harvest. (The Chronology of Ezra 7 pg 56 by S.H.
Horn)

“Moses, however, appointed Nisan, that is to say
Xanthicus, as the first month for the festivals, because it was in this
month that he brought the Hebrews out of Egypt; he also reckoned this
month as the commencement of the year for everything relating to divine
worship, but for selling and buying and other ordinary affairs he
preserved the ancient order” (Josephus Antiquities
1.3.3)

Therefore, the attempt to make the 7th day Sabbath dependent
upon the lunar cycle is unfounded. It has no Biblical support and
Seventh-day Adventists see from Scripture that the weekly cycle is
independent of both the sun and moon’s rotations. The 7 day week is an
expression of God’s sovereignty over time and it stands upon the authority
of His Word alone. Seriously, what other reason can we present as to why a
week ought to be 7 days long? There is none other except God's example at
creation.

Last but not least, the objective reason to support a 31
AD crucifixion date comes from mathematics. The only decree given by a
Persian king that 483 years later brings you up to Christ is the 457 BC
decree of Artaxerxes. This is the one fact that no critic can refute.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

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06-23-2009

#14

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

In this post, I believe you are
confusing the Hebrew religious calendar with the civil calendar.
Besides the fact that I cannot find any documentation that Karaites
based the 7th day Sabbath from the lunar cycle there are several
other problems inherent in your post.

1) According to the
Bible, the weekly cycle of 7 days runs independently of the monthly
and annual cycles.

This is not about
what you and I believe...
...it is about the information William Miller
relied on to establish 22 October 1844...
...William Miller was
dependant on a calendar that presupposed a lunar Sabbath
calculation...
...this is how he was able to establish 31
AD...
...because by using a lunar calendar every Passover coincided
with a Sabbath...
...so the crucifixion could have been any year during
the years 26 AD through 36 AD.

The bible may or may not support a
Sabbath determined by a lunar calculation...
...and it was not an issue
for William Miller because he was not a Sabbatarian...
...it only
creates a paradox for SDA's...
...who establish their origin on one
basis and their Sabbath on another.

Quote:

This truth is apparent even from the Genesis narrative
because the sun and moon come into existence on the 4th day, not the
1st. The 7 day week does not begin with their rotation but it began
independently of these heavenly bodies. (See Gen 1:14-19)

2)
The 7th day Sabbath was observed before the annual festivals were
commanded (See Exodus 16) and it was commanded based on the 6 work
days followed by 7th day rest of God at creation (See Exodus
20:8-11).

These Scriptures show the week and the
corresponding 7th day Sabbath to be independent of the moon’s
rotation and based upon the Divine time sequence of 6 days followed
by the 7th day of rest.

You will have to
be more specific...
...I am unable to find support for you argument in
the texts you have quoted.

Quote:

3) The Jews had a civil calendar of an ancient order
which they followed before their religious calendar (7th month long)
came into effect. They continued using this calendar alongside with
the religious calendar.

“That the Jews must have had a
system of intercalculation by which the lunar calendar was brought
into harmony with the natural solar year is implied in the law
regarding the Passover fearst. This law required that the feast be
kept unchangeably in the middle of the first month (Lev 23:5) but
also connected it with the barley harvest by requiring the offering
of a sheaf of the firstfruits (Lev 23:10,11). Thus the calendar was
probably corrected by the insertion of embolismic months whenever
needed to let the Passover occur at the beginning of the barley
harvest. (The Chronology of Ezra 7 pg 56 by S.H. Horn)

This quote does not say the Sabbath was
dependant on the civil solar year.

The intercalculation was only a
device to bring the beginning of the lunar year into sync with the Barley
harvest...
...the first Passover occurred at a full moon when the
Barley was ripe...
...adding a 'leap month' (moonth) simply allowed the
shorter lunar cycle to catch up to the solar cycle.

Quote:

“Moses, however, appointed Nisan, that is to say
Xanthicus, as the first month for the festivals, because it was in
this month that he brought the Hebrews out of Egypt; he also
reckoned this month as the commencement of the year for everything
relating to divine worship, but for selling and buying and other
ordinary affairs he preserved the ancient order” (Josephus
Antiquities 1.3.3)

So was the Sabbath an
'ordinary affair' or 'divine worship'?

Consider these
quotes...

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically
recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the
Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle” (Universal
Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath
the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of
the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths
became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29
or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days,
although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly
assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life.
The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later]
discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious
Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-23-2009 at 04:33
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07-01-2009

#15

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

In this post, I believe you are
confusing the Hebrew religious calendar with the civil calendar.
Besides the fact that I cannot find any documentation that Karaites
based the 7th day Sabbath from the lunar cycle there are several
other problems inherent in your post.

Schaff Herzog and the Universal
Jewish ency both state the early Sabbath of the Israelites was dependent
on the New Moon AND that while usually the length in days between Sabbaths
was 6 days, depending on the lunar month, it could sometimes as much as
eight between Sabbaths.

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06-29-2009

#16

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed
Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to
the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William
Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis
for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite
calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon
each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that
night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of
15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite
calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates
for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day
Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion
date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that
establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite
calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD
crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly
cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly
cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin
calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s
are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath
determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

SDAs
lay claim to the fact that Jesus knows what He was talking about in the 70
week prophecy. All the paradoxes are not a problem for Jesus for He is the
Lord of the Sabbath, the Lord of Prophecy, and the Lord of Salvation. When
He prophesied the 70 week prophecy and when He said He would die in the
middle of the 70th week He knew what He is talking about for He is
God.

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06-29-2009

#17

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

SDAs lay claim to the fact that
Jesus knows what He was talking about in the 70 week prophecy. All
the paradoxes are not a problem for Jesus for He is the Lord of the
Sabbath, the Lord of Prophecy, and the Lord of Salvation. When He
prophesied the 70 week prophecy and when He said He would die in the
middle of the 70th week He knew what He is talking about for He is
God.

Jesus is not the paradox
Greg...
...the basis for SDAism's origin and choice of Sabbath is the
paradox.

The year 31 AD may well be the crucifixion
year...
...and it is easily establish on the basis of a Lunar
Sabbath.

However, this confirmation has a downside...
...it
destroys the basis of a perpetual Sabbath based on a Gregorian Lunar
calendar.

SDA's criticize Roman Catholicism for changing the
Sabbath...
...but are guilty of the same error.

It would be
funny if it weren't so sad.

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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-29-2009

#18

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Jesus is not the paradox
Greg...
...the basis for SDAism's origin and choice of Sabbath is
the paradox.

The year 31 AD may well be the crucifixion
year...
...and it is easily establish on the basis of a Lunar
Sabbath.

However, this confirmation has a
downside...
...it destroys the basis of a perpetual Sabbath based
on a Gregorian Lunar calendar.

SDA's criticize Roman
Catholicism for changing the Sabbath...
...but are guilty of the
same error.

It would be funny if it weren't so
sad.

Pure
rubbish.

The year 31 AD is established on the basis of
mathematics. Your whole theory about the Passover day does not stand
because you can't even prove what method the Jews used to determine the
day back in Jesus' time.

The 7th day Sabbath is established on the
Divine pattern seen at creation and commanded in the Decalogue.

SDA's claim (and it is confirmed by our Catholic friends) that the
papal system has attempted to transfer the sanctity of the 7th day to the
1st day of the week.

In no way are SDA's guilty of the same error.

The lunar Sabbath day has no Biblical evidence behind it. End of
story.

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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06-29-2009

#19

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Pure rubbish.

The year 31 AD
is established on the basis of mathematics. Your whole theory about
the Passover day does not stand because you can't even prove what
method the Jews used to determine the day back in Jesus' time.

The 7th day Sabbath is established on the Divine pattern
seen at creation and commanded in the Decalogue.

SDA's claim
(and it is confirmed by our Catholic friends) that the papal system
has attempted to transfer the sanctity of the 7th day to the 1st day
of the week.

In no way are SDA's guilty of the same error.

The lunar Sabbath day has no Biblical evidence behind it.
End of story.

Did that hit a nerve or
what?

There are about twelve Biblical criterion that need to be
satisfied to have the crucifixion occur in a given year...
...one is
that the 14th Nisan must fall on a day before the Sabbath...
...you and
your SDA mates have no way of satisfying this criteria...
...without
appealing to a Lunar Calendar as William Miller did...
...this is not
my problem GW...it's yours...
...solve it or shelve it.

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06-29-2009

#20

Gospel_Way

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Problem Already Solved

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

There are about twelve Biblical
criterion that need to be satisfied to have the crucifixion occur in
a given year...
...one is that the 14th Nisan must fall on a day
before the Sabbath...
...you and your SDA mates have no way of
satisfying this criteria...
...without appealing to a Lunar
Calendar as William Miller did...
...this is not my problem
GW...it's yours...
...solve it or shelve
it.

I do not know how to bump to
another thread but your problem has already been solved. You did not reply
to it there so I will put it up again here.

Thank you
Troubleshooter,

Piecing together all of the information that you
have provided I am going to summarize your problem with the 457 BC to 27,
31, 34 AD timeline. Here it is:

When Jesus died the weekly Sabbath
and annual Passover day lined up so therefore He had to have died in 30 AD
or 33 AD because these are the only 2 years during Pilate’s reign where
Nisan 15 fell on the weekly Sabbath. Your reference for this information
is Table 179, Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Revised
Edition)

Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: What method have you used to determine
which day was the Passover in 31 AD?

The
reason why I asked this question Troubleshooter is that the answer reveals
an inherent problem. Namely that the Passover dates given today for the
26-36 AD era are based on modern scientific calculations.

Quote:

In this review astronomical calculations are used
to reconstruct the first century A.D. Jewish calendar and to date a
lunar eclipse which Biblical and other references suggest
followed the crucifixion (The Date of the Crucifixion by Colin J.
Humprheys and W. Graeme Waddington)

Please
note, I am quoting from one of your listed resources here. There are so
many things to say here but let’s deal with one issue at a time.

Issue # 1: There is no evidence to show that astronomical
calculations were how the Passover day was determined back in Jesus’ day.
We have to admit the possibility that the barley harvest was the
determining factor.

Truthfully there are several variables that
make it a technical impossibility for us to know even the exact month when
Jesus died. We know the season (i.e. springtime) and we know the day (give
or take a day) thanks to the Gospel accounts but we do not know the month
with absolute certainty. Well why not?

“The difficulty with
regard to the month is to know how the commencement of the Jewish year was
fixed- in what years an extra month was intercalculated before Nisan.
If the Paschal full moon was, as in later Christian times, the first after
the spring equinox, the difficulty would be reduced to the question on
what day the equinox was reckoned. If, on the other hand, it was, as in
ancient Jewish times, the first after the earliest ears of the barley
harvest would be ripe, it would have varied with the forwardness or
backwardness of the season from year to year.” (The Encyclopedia
Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Do you see the problem? We
do not know what method the Jews of Jesus’ day were using to calculate the
Passover day. Were they using the spring equinox or where they using the
barley harvest?

“Direct material for answering the question when
and how far astronomical calculations replaced simple observations as the
basis of the Jewish calendar is not forthcoming.” (ibid)

Even
more so, that creates another potential problem.

“The
difficulty with regard to the day is, quite similarly, to know what
precise relation the first day of the Jewish month bore to the
astronomical new moon. In later Christian times the Paschal month was
calculated from the astronomical new moon; in earlier Jewish times all
month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new moon was
visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some hours,
and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical new
moon.” (ibid)

If the religious calendar was determined by
the sighting of the new moon then we have a range of 3 days due to
unfavorable circumstances. This is why I wrote to you earlier the
following statement:

Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: With the 457 BC starting date I don't
have to create any extensions, the math speaks for itself and
history affirms that I end up in the correct range for the lifetime
of Christ. It is the best interpretation that I have seen to date so
I am sticking with it. Your attempt to debunk the spring 31 AD date
for the cross, based on when the Passover day occurred that year,
may have merit but I would point out to you that no other date works
with this timeline. As I noted earlier, you are presenting a
challenge that, if correct, makes my interpretation off by a day or
two. The interpretation that you presented for Daniel 9 is off by
several decades.

There’s a lot more to
say on this and other subjects but I have other responsibilities which I
must fulfill. I hope to continue this dialogue with you at a later time.
Until then, may God bless you and may His Spirit lead you into all truth.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

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06-30-2009

#21

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

I do not know how to bump to another
thread but your problem has already been solved. You did not reply
to it there so I will put it up again
here.

I ignored it because it was too
deep in the thread and had drifting off topic...
...thanks for
reposting it here...
...and you have not solved anything...you just
keep redefining the paradox.

Quote:

Piecing together all of the information that you have
provided I am going to summarize your problem with the 457 BC to 27,
31, 34 AD timeline. Here it is:

When Jesus died the weekly
Sabbath and annual Passover day lined up so therefore He had to have
died in 30 AD or 33 AD because these are the only 2 years during
Pilate’s reign where Nisan 15 fell on the weekly Sabbath. Your
reference for this information is Table 179, Jack Finegan, The
Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Revised Edition)

The solution I suggested here assumes a
Julian calendar reckoning.

I suggested it as a solution because
SDA's rely on the Julian/Gregorian calendar to determine their current
Sabbath's...
...to be consistent with the Julian/Gregorian
reckoning...
...the day Jesus died must be a Friday and the Passover
must be a Saturday/Sabbath...
...this can only have occurred in the
years 30 AD or 33 AD...
...if there was an intercalation (leap-month)
in any of these years...
...the only year that could satisfy this
criteria is 34 AD.

But you have no problem wih 31 AD if you use a
Lunar weekly Sabbath reckoning...
...because the 15th Nisan in a Lunar
calendar is always a weekly Sabbath...
...it's your best
solution...
...but then you have to examine why you observe a Gregorian
Saturday.

Quote:

The reason why I asked this question Troubleshooter is
that the answer reveals an inherent problem. Namely that the
Passover dates given today for the 26-36 AD era are based on modern
scientific calculations.

I thought you
were prepared to take an objective view...
...so I provided source
materials so that you could examine the issues for yourself...
...I
should have realized you would use them to support your 'cherished'
position.

The 1938 General Conference Research Committee understood
the issues...
...and Grace Amadon continued the research for many years
after this...
...the subject deserves more than a cursory
look.

Quote:

Please note, I am quoting from one of your listed
resources here. There are so many things to say here but let’s deal
with one issue at a time.

Issue # 1: There is no evidence to
show that astronomical calculations were how the Passover day was
determined back in Jesus’ day. We have to admit the possibility that
the barley harvest was the determining factor.

Truthfully
there are several variables that make it a technical impossibility
for us to know even the exact month when Jesus died. We know the
season (i.e. springtime) and we know the day (give or take a day)
thanks to the Gospel accounts but we do not know the month with
absolute certainty. Well why not?

“The difficulty with
regard to the month is to know how the commencement of the Jewish
year was fixed- in what years an extra month was intercalculated
before Nisan. If the Paschal full moon was, as in later
Christian times, the first after the spring equinox, the difficulty
would be reduced to the question on what day the equinox was
reckoned. If, on the other hand, it was, as in ancient Jewish
times, the first after the earliest ears of the barley harvest would
be ripe, it would have varied with the forwardness or backwardness
of the season from year to year.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica
11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Do you see the problem? We do not
know what method the Jews of Jesus’ day were using to calculate the
Passover day. Were they using the spring equinox or where they using
the barley harvest?

“Direct material for answering the
question when and how far astronomical calculations replaced simple
observations as the basis of the Jewish calendar is not
forthcoming.” (ibid)

Even more so, that creates another
potential problem.

“The difficulty with regard to the day
is, quite similarly, to know what precise relation the first day of
the Jewish month bore to the astronomical new moon. In later
Christian times the Paschal month was calculated from the
astronomical new moon; in earlier Jewish times all month were
reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new moon was visible,
which in the most favorable circumstances would be some hours, and
in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical new
moon.” (ibid)

This is only a problem
if you are trying to work from the perspective of a Julian
calendar...
...the Lunar/Solar and Julian calendars do not
coincide...
...a Julian Saturday only occasionally concides wth a
Sabbath.

But you have no problem with the 31 AD date if like
William Miller you use a Lunar reckoning...
...because the 15th Nisan
in a Lunar calendar is always a Lunar weekly Sabbath.

Quote:

If the religious calendar was determined by the
sighting of the new moon then we have a range of 3 days due
to unfavorable circumstances. This is why I wrote to you earlier
the following statement:

So it's ok to
determine the origin of Adventism to the exact day of 22 October 1844 (a
Gregorian Tuesday)...
...but the Lord could not have been crucified on
the exact day?

The Bible and Ellen White said Jesus died on a
'preparation day'...
...and Jesus rested in Joseph's tomb on a Sabbath
that was a Passover...
...you simply don't have the luxury GW of
fudging it for three days...
...if you insist on determining the weekly
Sabbath by the Julian calendar.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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07-01-2009

#22

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: ...to be consistent with the
Julian/Gregorian reckoning...
...the day Jesus died must be a
Friday and the Passover must be a Saturday/Sabbath...
...this can
only have occurred in the years 30 AD or 33 AD...

As I am reading your post I am seeing more
clearly why we cannot find harmony on the matter. There are so many things
to be said but for the time being I am going to deal with your assertion
that 30 AD and 33 AD are the only years were Passover and the weekly 7th
day Sabbath lined up.

Again, I would love for you to show how you
have reached this conclusion.

On what basis did you or the
scholars you are quoting pick the month Nisan (March or April) from these
years?

And what evidence can you offer that shows that
their calculations are a match for what the Jews of Jesus’ day were doing
to calculate the Passover?

The problem that you have, which so
far you have not recognized, is that you have absolutely no proof that the
Jews of Jesus’ day were using the same method that you are for calculating
the Passover. As the quote I put up from the Encyclopedia Brittannica
explained, we do not have any direct material for answering the question
as to when and how far astronomical calculations replaced observation as
the basis of the Jewish calendar.

“Many have thought that the
date of the crucifixion can be determined very easily by computing the
date of a new moon or a full moon by means of astronomical tables. A
discussion of two points [will] show the complexity and uncertainty of
such computation.

The application of to lunar data to the
problem of finding any Passover date in New Testament times involves two
variable factors. The choice must be made between the March new moon and
the April new moon in any given year the basis for identifying the month
of Nisan. Then the astronomical new moon (conjunction) must be calculated
backward from modern lunar tables with small but sometimes significant
margin of error. Finally the interval between that point and the visible
crescent must be calculated, according to astronomical or calendrical
thory, in order to arrive at the most probable sunset for the beginning of
the first day of the month. It must be remembered that our lack of exact
knowledge of the actual practices of those times may lead us to choose the
wrong month or the wrong day: consequently no result is more than a
probability.” (SDABC Vol 5. Pg 254)

Do you see the problem? And
by the way, this is just one of them. There are some other more complex
ones that involve certain other presuppositions inherent in the Passover
dating systems. I am not even going to get into it because I don't have
that type of time.

But anyway back to your current problem. You
are using a method to prove your case but you cannot show that the Jews of
Jesus’ day were using it themselves. Therefore, even if your calculations
of the 1st month (you only have March or April so there’s a 50% chance)
and when the crescent became visible in that month are correct, you still
cannot say that the Jews would have started their month on that exact same
date. If they were using the sighting of the New Moon as the basis for the
start date then there is a range of 3 days flexibility for the starting
day due to unfavorable circumstances.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: The Bible and Ellen White said
Jesus died on a 'preparation day'...
...and Jesus rested in
Joseph's tomb on a Sabbath that was a Passover...
...you simply
don't have the luxury GW of fudging it for three days...
...if
you insist on determining the weekly Sabbath by the Julian calendar.

I don’t think you are understanding me
correctly Troubleshooter. I am not changing the day of the crucifixion
(Friday) nor when the Passover lamb was eaten (after sunset, hence the
beginning of the 7th day Sabbath), those are established Bible facts. What
I am trying to show you is that there is a range of 3 days from when the
New Moon occurred in which the Jews could have started counting the days
of their 1st month. Therefore there is no guarantee that New Moon had to
occur 14 days before Friday in order to have the 14th day of Nissan occur
on a Friday that year. All that had to happen is that the New Moon had to
have occurred within a 3 day range of 14 days before Friday. Now if we are
still on the same page, I suppose I could take the time to present some
evidence showing the plausibility of this back in 31 AD but let’s see what
happens as a result of this post first. Until then...

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-02-2009

#23

Troubleshooter

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Put up...

You use convergent argument to support
a 457 BC beginning...
...but divergent reasoning to deflect
support for any date except 31 AD.

All I want you or any SDA to
give me is a case for a 31 AD crucifixion of Christ...
...that fits the
criteria of the biblical witness.

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07-02-2009

#24

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: All I want you or any SDA to give
me is a case for a 31 AD crucifixion of Christ...that fits the
criteria of the biblical witness.

Even
when an individual does this you do not accept it. And here's an even more
poignant problem, you have established a false criteria! You say that only
30 AD and 33 AD can fit as the year of the crucifixion.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: ..the day Jesus died must be a
Friday and the Passover must be a Saturday/Sabbath...this can only
have occurred in the years 30 AD or 33 AD...

There's an inherent problem in your
statement and I was hoping to help you see it so I asked you to explain
how you have reached this conclusion:

Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: On what basis did you or the scholars
you are quoting pick the month Nisan (March or April) from these
years?

And what evidence can you offer that shows that their
calculations are a match for what the Jews of Jesus’ day were doing
to calculate the Passover?

And what
response to I get? You talk about convergent argument and divergent
arguments. Is that all you can say? Lol! You’re hilarious. How about some
answers to the questions?

You long for a SDA to give you a case for
the 31 AD crucifixion of Christ but you do not even acknowledge the
information that has been given to you thus far. If the 14th of Nisan was
counted out from when someone saw the new moon then we have some
flexibility that allows for a Passover/Sabbath correspondence without
necessarily having the new moon 14 days before Friday. This is very
plausible and the truth of the matter is that no one can settle this issue
conclusively. Your system depends on astronomical calculations and does
not take into consideration the human factor and/or unfavorable
conditions. This alone invalidates your point and I haven't even begun to
mention the other variable factors.

Do you know how complicated
this issue is? I don’t even know where to begin. Perhaps we should discuss
the fact that scholars are uncertain as to what years the Jews added an
extra month to keep the Passover in line with the barley festival. Or
maybe we can talk about how Biblical evidence is divided as to which day
the Passover actually was the year that Jesus died. John’s Gospel puts it
one day later than the synoptic Gospels do. Do I need to keep going? There
are even more issues that could be mentioned.

Now here’s the final
boil down for me. I have an interpretation of Daniel 9 that fits all of
the Biblical data quite well. My argument is mathematical. 538, 520, 457
and 444 BC are the potential starting dates for the Daniel 9 prophecy. We
know the range that must be produced due to the New Testament (i.e. Herod
the Great, 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, festival counts in the Gospel of
John) and the only decree that works naturally is 457. I can prove the 457
BC date without a problem (thank you Ptolemy’s canon and the double-dated
scrolls in Elephantine Egypt) and with this starting date the 490 years
ends in 34 AD. Calculating the components of the last week (7 years) into
the equation produces 27, 31 and 34 AD. Thanks to Luke’s testimony about
the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, John’s festival count and Paul’s
timeline in Galatians 2, these dates all fit well into the picture.

Even an ex-Adventist critic admitted to me that I had an
interpretation that fit! What do you have? I have yet to see an
alternative interpretation that works like this one. Oh I hear a lot of
complaints and bickering but no other interpretation that even comes close
to harmonizing all the data like the 457 BC interpretation. All I hear
from you is a complaint that 31 AD can’t possibly fit because of the
Passover/Sabbath line-up and yet the method by which you derive this
criticism is a fallacy. I’m sorry brother but you’re going to have to come
with something better than that.

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-02-2009

#25

Troubleshooter

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Please allow me to walk you throught the
detail...

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: ..the day Jesus died must be a
Friday and the Passover must be a Saturday/Sabbath...this can only
have occurred in the years 30 AD or 33 AD...

Quote:

GW answered : There's an inherent problem in your
statement and I was hoping to help you see it so I asked you
to explain how you have reached this conclusion:

The
synoptic evidence...

Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come,
because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the
sabbath..."

Luke 23:54 "And that day was the
preparation, and the sabbath drew on".

John
19:14-16 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the
sixth hour:...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.
And they took Jesus, and led him away."

John 19:31 "The Jews
therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should
not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath
day was an high day)"

Ellen confirms this for
you...

"At last Jesus was at rest. The long day of shame and
torture was ended. As the last rays of the setting sun ushered in the
Sabbath, the Son of God lay in quietude in Joseph's tomb. His work
completed, His hands folded in peace, He rested through the sacred
hours of the Sabbath day.

With this scene the day upon which
Jesus rested is forever linked. For "His work is perfect;" and "whatsoever
God doeth, it shall be forever." Deut. 32:4; Eccl. 3:14. When there shall
be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all
His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21), the creation
Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph's tomb, will
still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in
praise, as "from one Sabbath to another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the
saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb." Ellen White DA
Chapter 80

"That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the
sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people.
At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day
the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The
Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to
whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's
tomb." Ibid

So far we have the following...

That the
Sabbath was also a Passover and if you believe Sabbath =
Saturday...
...then Jesus died on a Friday and was in Joseph's tomb on
a Saturday/Sabbath...
...which was also a Passover.

So can we
agree with this detail so far?

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07-02-2009

#26

Gospel_Way

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Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: I don’t think you are understanding me
correctly Troubleshooter. I am not changing the day of the
crucifixion (Friday) nor when the Passover lamb was eaten (after
sunset, hence the beginning of the 7th day Sabbath), those are
established Bible facts. What I am trying to show you is that
there is a range of 3 days from when the New Moon occurred in which
the Jews could have started counting the days of their 1st month.
Therefore there is no guarantee that New Moon had to occur 14 days
before Friday in order to have the 14th day of Nissan occur on a
Friday that year. All that had to happen is that the New Moon had to
have occurred within a 3 day range of 14 days before Friday.

Yours in Christ,
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07-02-2009

#27

Gospel_Way

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Test Question:

Do you understand the
method whereby the scholars that you quoted determined the Passover
day?

If so could you please explain it to me?

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-02-2009

#28

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Test Question:

Do you
understand the method whereby the scholars that you quoted
determined the Passover day?

If so could you please explain
it to me?

Following is March and
April from the Julian calendar 31 AD...
...showing the phases of the
moon in these two months.

I have shown two lunar months to allow
for the possibility of an intercalated lunar month in that
year.

The full moon
does not fall on a Friday/Saturday in either month.

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07-03-2009

#29

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Following is March and April from
the Julian calendar 31 AD...
...showing the phases of the moon in
these two months.

I have shown two lunar months to allow for
the possibility of an intercalated lunar month in that
year.

The full
moon does not fall on a Friday/Saturday in either month.

GW
are you going to comment on this?

The Julian calendar for any year
is easy to reproduce.
Here is one place where you can do it...
http://www.calendarhome.com/

The lunar data is
available form various sources...
U.S. Naval Observatory

NASA
Eclipse WebSite - Phases of the Moon 1 to 100
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html

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07-02-2009

#30

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Neither March or April 31 AD fits with Ellen
either...

"In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made
His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full,
shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed
into silence." DA 685

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07-03-2009

#31

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Neither March or April 31 AD fits
with Ellen either...

"In company with His disciples, the
Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The
Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The
city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

I'm
not getting what the hold up is here with accepting the facts. The
Universal Jewish Ency, Schaff - Herzog and Scripture all attest to the
fact that the Religious Authority within Judaism had the right to adjust
the calendar.

If anything, Judaism, in creating a perpetual cycle
of 7 day weeks throughout the year resulted in more Sabbath's being
observed both from a lunar, solar or luni-solar year. You would always
have only 6 days from Sabbath to Sabbath instead of a couple extra days
depending on the month being 29 or 30 days in length.

A perfect
argument for Oral Tradition being Biblically binding.

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07-03-2009

#32

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I'm not getting what the hold up is
here with accepting the facts. The Universal Jewish Ency, Schaff -
Herzog and Scripture all attest to the fact that the Religious
Authority within Judaism had the right to adjust the calendar.

If anything, Judaism, in creating a perpetual cycle of 7 day
weeks throughout the year resulted in more Sabbath's being observed
both from a lunar, solar or luni-solar year. You would always have
only 6 days from Sabbath to Sabbath instead of a couple extra days
depending on the month being 29 or 30 days in length.

A
perfect argument for Oral Tradition being Biblically
binding.

Hi Pythons, I appreciate
your contribution to this forum.

The 'hold up' is because this
issue is focused on the origin and heart of SDAism.

If they admit
to the paradox they have to re-evaluate 1844, the Sabbath or
both.

An appeal to oral tradition won't fix this.

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07-03-2009

#33

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And the wheels on the bus go round and
round,...

Hello Troubleshooter,

You still
haven’t answered the questions

Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: Do you understand the method whereby
the scholars that you quoted determined the Passover day? If so
could you please explain it to me?

An
answer like this would suffice: The scholars that I am quoting have
determined that the Jews of Jesus’ day were calculating the Passover
by…(such and such a method,…) The ancient sources which testify to this
truth are...(so and so,…)

Somehow though I doubt you will be
able to do this. Why?

“Direct material for answering the
question when and how far astronomical calculations replaced simple
observations as the basis of the Jewish calendar is not forthcoming.”
(The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Without
such a witness your whole theory falls flat because it fails to consider
the probable human element involved in calculating the Passover
day.

“Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical
calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to
the reappearance of the crescent of the moon” (Encyclopaedia Judaica,
Vol. 12, p. 1039)

Now regarding the calendars that you have put
up, in AD 31 we have a new moon occurring on a Tuesday, April 10th. This
date, if accurate, works with a Friday Passover because of the 3 day
interval permissible from the conjunction.

“In earlier Jewish
times all month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new
moon was visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some
hours, and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical
new moon.”(The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg
890)

Thus a Tuesday conjunction, with a 3-day interval, brings us
to Friday.

Now let’s deal with another issue that you have
mentioned.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: Neither March or April 31 AD fits
with Ellen either...

"In company with His disciples, the
Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The
Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city
of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

For the sake of our dialogue, I am going
to make an assumption that you have gotten the days correct on the
calendar that you posted. In April 31 AD you have the full moon on
Wednesday the 25th. The Savior’s traveling to Gethsemane, in the EGW quote
that you mentioned, would be happening on Thursday the 26th. This is not a
problem in the slightest. Why? Because an astronomical full moon does not
always fall exactly at the midpoint between 2 lunar conjunctions.
Sometimes they appear as quickly as 13 days, 21 hr and 53 minutes or other
times as much as 15 days, 14 hours and 30 minutes. Thus mathematically
speaking the full moon could have been on that Thursday.

Again the
31 AD date fits within the Biblical criteria and when one considers the
previously established fact that 457 BC is the only workable starting date
for the Daniel 9 timeline and it yields 27, 31 and 34 AD when the math is
done, one has to be very obstinate to persist in rejecting it.

Now
there is one last point that I will make here. And this one is regarding
the matter of interpreting Ellen White’s writings. How should we
understand her quote from Desire of Ages pg 685? Should we interpret her
as saying that she saw the astronomical full moon? Her paragraph here is a
vivid description of the Savior’s movements on Thursday night and she
describes the conditions of the city and night.

Are you aware of
the fact that the moon on the night before and after the astronomical full
moon (in this case Tuesday and Thursday) has virtually the exact same
lumination? It is distinguishable from the astronomical full moon only to
the expert eye. So, just for argument’s sake and speaking hypothetically
now, let’s pretend that the full moon was exactly 14 days after the
conjunction so that it occurred Wednesday April 25th in 31 AD. Even if
that is correct then Mrs. White’s statement about a full broad moon is
regarding Thursday April 26th and on that day the moon would have looked
just like a …guess what? Full Moon!

There are more things that
need to be said but I believe the information I have provided here is
sufficient to make my point. In all of these things, what I have said once
I will say again because it deserves repeating.

Quote:

Gospel_Way wrote: As I noted earlier, you are presenting
a challenge that, if correct, makes my interpretation off by a day
or two. The interpretation that you presented for Daniel 9 is off by
several decades.

Yours in
Christ,
Gospel_Way

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07-03-2009

#34

Troubleshooter

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What is your case FOR AD31?

The two Julian calendar months are the heart
of the 'scholars' data for ruling out 31 AD.

What is your case
for 31 AD?

So far all you have given me is bluster about why
any date can't be accurately established...
...which only works against
your position.

I have no date preference and I don't need to
establish my religious prophetic origin...
...through dubious
date-setting schemes.

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Last edited by Troubleshooter; 07-03-2009 at 04:10
AM..

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07-03-2009

#35

Greg Goodchild

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I don't understand your issue over the
Sabbath in the days of Jesus death. It appears to me that you are trying
to settle a spiritual issue by logic and reason. You, of course are free
to do so and to deal with whatever issues you feel a need to address.

From my perspective it is solved three ways, God said it, it is
written in the Bible, EGW confirmed it. It would be nice for me to be able
to solve all of your concerns so that your logic and reason were satisfied
but it appears that even old Jack Finergan could not solve the issue
absolutely. Therefore the issue, in my opinion, is faith rather than the
logic. I believe that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly
Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf
offering.

In addition since I am settled on Sabbath as a sign of
Jesus' eternal covenant, I believe that it will continue for ever since
Jesus blessed His Sabbath day by resting on it, and then returning to the
work of salvation on Sunday. So for me Sabbath is not a paradox, it is
simply a matter of faith and obedience by
faith.

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07-03-2009

#36

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

I don't understand your issue over
the Sabbath in the days of Jesus death. It appears to me that you
are trying to settle a spiritual issue by logic and reason. You, of
course are free to do so and to deal with whatever issues you feel a
need to address.

From my perspective it is solved three
ways, God said it, it is written in the Bible, EGW confirmed it. It
would be nice for me to be able to solve all of your concerns so
that your logic and reason were satisfied but it appears that even
old Jack Finergan could not solve the issue absolutely. Therefore
the issue, in my opinion, is faith rather than the logic. I believe
that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly Sabbath and it
was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf offering.

In addition since I am settled on Sabbath as a sign of
Jesus' eternal covenant, I believe that it will continue for ever
since Jesus blessed His Sabbath day by resting on it, and then
returning to the work of salvation on Sunday. So for me Sabbath is
not a paradox, it is simply a matter of faith and obedience by
faith.

Greg, if you would allow me a
short intrusion into your discussion with T.S. I would like your comment
on the following quote from Titus Flavius Clemens, AKA Clement of
Alexandria who died approx 215 A.D. The quote can be read in full context
at http://books.google.com/books?id=2iWtkQfDLfcC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=The+Stromata+for+if+the+moon+is+not+visible&source=bl&ots=vpI7MemUFY&sig=resO9DTGPVqEmAcd40FTmQwJ9O0&hl=en&ei=snhNSvmaFYKzlAe0tIy3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus

What, then, the expression, "not as
the Greeks" means, Peter himself shall explain, as he adds: "since
they are carried away be ignorance, and know not God" ( as we do
according to the perfect knowledge ); "hurt giving shape to the
things of which he gave them the power of use- stocks and stones,
brass, iron, gold and silver - matter and setting up the things that
are slaves for use and possession to worship them. And what God hath
given to them for food- the fowls of the air, and the fish of the
sea, and the creeping things of the earth and the wild beasts with
the four footed cattle of the field, weasels, mice, cats and dogs
and apes, and their own proper food - they sacrifice as sacrifices
to mortals and offering dead things to the dead, as to gods, are
unthankful to God denying His existence by these things.

And
that IT IS SAID that we and the Greeks know the same God, though not
in the same way, he will infer THUS, "NEITHER WORSHIP AS THE JEWS;
FOR THEY, THINKING THAT THEY ONLY KNOW GOD, DO NOT KNOW HIM, ADORING
AS THEY DO ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS, THE MONTH AND THE MOON. AND IF
THE MOON BE NOT VISIBLE, THEY DO NOT HOLD
THE SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE
FIRST, NOR DO THEY HOLD THE NEW
MOON, NOR THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, NOR THE FEAST NOR
THE GREAT DAY. Then he gives the finishing stroke to the question,
"so that do ye also, learning holily and righteously what we deliver
to you; keep them, worshiping God in a new way, by Christ. For we
find in the scriptures, as the Lord says, "Behold I will make you a
new covenant, not as I made with your fathers in mount Horeb. He
made a new covenant with us, for what belongs to the Greeks and the
Jews is old.

This seems to be at the
heart of the issue. What do you say to this
quote?

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07-05-2009

#37

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Greg, if you would allow me a short
intrusion into your discussion with T.S. I would like your comment
on the following quote from Titus Flavius Clemens, AKA Clement of
Alexandria who died approx 215 A.D. The quote can be read in full
context at http://books.google.com/books?id=2iWtkQfDLfcC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=The+Stromata+for+if+the+moon+is+not+visible&source=bl&ots=vpI7MemUFY&sig=resO9DTGPVqEmAcd40FTmQwJ9O0&hl=en&ei=snhNSvmaFYKzlAe0tIy3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Interesting
quote there Pythons.

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07-05-2009

#38

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

Interesting quote there
Pythons.

Notice how he said it as an
afterthought. It wasn't like he was in debate that the Jews did it that
way and another person was claiming that they didn't. I've got all the
Church Father's in my bookshelf so I am going to have to read what they
have said in relation to this. Odd I've read over the books many times and
never put two and two togther on this issue. It appears to be
accurate.

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07-06-2009

#39

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Philo, Josephus and the Essenes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Notice how he said it as an
afterthought. It wasn't like he was in debate that the Jews did it
that way and another person was claiming that they didn't. I've got
all the Church Father's in my bookshelf so I am going to have to
read what they have said in relation to this. Odd I've read over the
books many times and never put two and two togther on this issue. It
appears to be accurate.

There is also
evidence from the writings of Philo, Josephus and the
Essenes...
...comfirming that it was Jewish practice to determine the
weeks and sabbaths by the lunar cycle.
http://www.creationcalendar.com/CalendarIssue/16-PhiloJosephusEssenes.pdf

I
do not have ready access to the works quoted...
...but here is a
summary of several quotes from the article...

“Again, the
periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven,
that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the
changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in
accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. At all
events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more
divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their
preservation in accordance with this number seven. … Accordingly, on
the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had
made.”
Philo - Allegorical Interpretation, 1 IV (8)

Notice
Philo's connection between lunar 'weeks' and 'creation week'.

It is
obvious that his comments are simply descriptive of Jewish
practice...
...like the following concerning Unleavened Bread and
Tabernacles.

“But to the seventh day of the week he has
assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the
periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing
two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which
takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown,
and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the
bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced”
Philo -
The Decalogue XXX (159)

Scripture clearly states that Unleavened
Bread and Tabernacles begin on the 15th day of their respective
months.

Leviticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month
at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same
month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye
must eat unleavened bread.

Leviticus 23:34 The fifteenth day of
this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days
unto the LORD.

So Philo is confirming that the 15th of the month
is a seventh day Sabbath every year...
...and always when the moon is
full...

"And this feast is begun on the fifteenth day of the month,
in the middle of the month, on the day on which the moon is full of light,
in consequence on the providence of Elohim taking care that there shall be
no darkness on that day.”
Philo’s Special Laws II, The Fifth Festival,
Section XXVIII (155)

This coincidence of a weekly sabbath, 15th day
of the month and a full moon every year...
...is not possible using a
Julian/Gregorian calendar.

Elsewhere Philo confirms that weeks
are determined by phases of the moon...

“…there is one principle of
reason by which the moon waxes and wanes in equal intervals, both as it
increases and diminishes in illumination; the seven lambs because it
receives the perfect shapes in periods of seven days—the half-moon in
the first seven day period after its conjunction with the sun,
full
moon in the second; and when it makes its return again, the first is
to half-moon, then it ceases at its conjunction with the sun.”
Philo -
Special Laws I. (178)

...and he expresses it again while using an
analogy...

“For it is said in the Scripture: On the tenth day of
this month let each of them take a sheep according to his house; in order
that from the tenth, there may be consecrated to the tenth, that is to
Elohim, the sacrifices which have been preserved in the soul, which is
illuminated in two portions out of the three, until it is entirely changed
in every part, and becomes a heavenly brilliancy like a full moon, at
the height of its increase at the end of the second week”.
Philo -
On Mating with the Preliminary Studies, XIX (102)

The same article
quotes from the Essenes and Josephus.

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07-06-2009

#40

Greg Goodchild

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Greg, if you would allow me a short
intrusion into your discussion with T.S. I would like your comment
on the following quote from Titus Flavius Clemens, AKA Clement of
Alexandria who died approx 215 A.D. The quote can be read in full
context at http://books.google.com/books?id=2iWtkQfDLfcC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=The+Stromata+for+if+the+moon+is+not+visible&source=bl&ots=vpI7MemUFY&sig=resO9DTGPVqEmAcd40FTmQwJ9O0&hl=en&ei=snhNSvmaFYKzlAe0tIy3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

This
seems to be at the heart of the issue. What do you say to this
quote?

Greg - I thank you for the
quote but I am not sure what the heart of the issue is? Is the heart of
this discussion what does one do with the moon, or is the heart of the
issue what does Jesus want from us in reference to the Passover, Feast of
Unleavened Bread, and Wave Sheaf; or is it what does Jesus want us to do
regarding Sabbath?

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