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> Seventh Day
Adventism

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

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12-17-2009

#1

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

The Millerites of the 1840ies vs. "a lunar driven Sabbath" of the
Karaites

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

[Dear Greg,]

I am
a Seventh-day Adventist. In this post to you I am not only
living proof of the fallacy of Troubleshooter's
claim...:

I have not seen
where you have refuted the main contension of this
thread.

SDA origins were established using a Karaite Lunar
calendar whose Sabbath was determined by a cycle that renewed each
New Moon...
...and SDA's observe a Sabbath determined by a
Julian/Gregorian calendar.

The irony is that the 31AD date
for Jesus crucifixion...
...necessary for their 2300 day/year
prophetic scheme...
...can not be established without using a
Lunar calendar.

None of your wordy comments so far have come
close to resolving
this.

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

I am sorry if you feel my posts are too
"wordy..." Or is it that you find my "wordy comments" too long or too deep
for you to carefully study and consider? Or perhaps, as happens so often
among men! - You'd certainly not be alone in so doing..., that you've
invested so much into this line of thought of yours that you are unwilling
to admit the obvious, when it is staring you in your face? Or else, as is
also all too common among men, that you've become so deeply colored by
your present line of thought that you've lost touch with the firm
foundations vs. such as, at the point of your beginning thinking this way,
gave a false appearance of being a firm foundation, whereas in reality it
was not? Somewhat along the line of your prior thinking that 1883
occurred some 40 years after (sic) 1939... rather than some
56 years before?

Well, be that as it may... And please don't take
that as an offense! It is certainly not intended as such, merely as a
friendly reminder and a call for being just a tad more willing to look
more deeply into the beginnings of your own line of thought. So please,
bear with my "wordy comments" just a tad more, or preferably until we both
are satisfied that we have arrived at a correct understanding of the best
available data touching upon the most important parts of this "Adventist
Sabbath Paradox" of yours.

Please remember, and do not forget,
that I remain indeed very thankful to you for a number of things of great
importance to me re the particulars upon which this thread is touching!
Thank you very much indeed for all of that! But back to the focus of this
thread of yours...:

* * * * * * * *

No evidence
in support of your contention that the Millerites perceived the Karaite
calendar as being tied to a lunar driven week or Sabbath

It
remains to be shown... - Please, before reading this post you should study
carefully my post at:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

It
remains to be shown that neither (that is, besides that which pertains to
the 1938/39 SDA GC Research Committee) is there any evidence brought
forth, that I’ve seen thus far within this thread, in support of William
Miller and his followers perceiving the Karaite calendar - which they were
indeed using - as being a calendar with lunar driven weeks or Sabbaths –
that is, other than touching the seven special Sabbaths within the three
plus annual feasts ordained forever per Leviticus 23.

But, I have
already shown (cf. item #6 in my prior post as copied also below!) that
the RC Committee was making yet another mistake… That is, a mistake re how
the Millerites came up with the October 22, 1844 AD date, based, not upon
monthly New Moon crescent observations as the Karaites consistently are
using, but, per the mistaken Committee belief, upon an assumption that,
once the beginning of Nisan was determined, all of the remainder of the
annual feast days were also exactly fixed and determined – not only to the
month, but to the exact day.

So far as I have seen, neither you,
nor anyone, has succeeded in coming up with anything of substance in
support of the Karaites ever using a lunar driven week or a lunar driven
weekly Sabbath. Yes, you’ve provided reference to a number of quotes from
various so called authoritative encyclopedias and other references -
mostly by way of the 4AngelsPublications website - that are suggesting
that possibly the weeks were originally also controlled by the New Moon
crescent, but it is clear from their words that those suggestions are
little or nothing more than assumptions without a documented and firm
foundation, that is, so far as provided within the given references… I
might add that it has been suggested by excellent scientists that
somewhere within ancient history the length of the lunar cycle was
different than now, even exactly 28 days, and that the number of lunar
months in a solar year was different also, at some point in time perhaps
no more than ten - and I find those studies very interesting and exciting,
yet, there too, I have not thus far to find the solid documents and facts
to prove it!!! Then too, was that to prove true in the end, that still
does not in anyway remove the likelihood or possibility that the seven day
'hepta circadian' rhythm in nature has ever been broken between creation
and now, that is, the seven day week as reckoned by Seventh-day Adventist
since the mid-1840ies...

In my New Testament and First Century
chronology studies over the last seven or so years I have found and
published on the web ample evidence to show that the seven day week
reckoned and used by Jesus and his disciples, as well as by Jews
generally, is the same seven day week as currently honored by Seventh-day
Adventists most everywhere, and is, or was, not a lunar driven Sabbath.
Anyone willing to challenge my on that, is invited to do so by diving
deeply into the heart and basics of our website
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io and then to help me approach even more the
ultimate solution and exactness re God's Scripture Calendar, and re God's
own reckoning of time!

Again, please forgive me for my "wordy
comments" while truly doing my very best in trying to point out to you the
obvious foundations as hidden beneath all the rubbish on
top!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

My prior
post as referenced above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Re
the Basics of this Thread

Dear
TroubleShooter,

I have a few questions for you re two of your
posts (as also quoted at the bottom of this post: )

1.

In your first post below you are claiming the following, are you
not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The weekly Sabbaths in
the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of
the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

Where is your
support for this claim of yours?

2.

Then you conclude the same post of yours by claiming the
following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an
origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly
Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a
weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

3.

In your second post below, you seem to be insinuating that the
GC Committee was in agreement with your above claims, or isn’t that
implied by these words of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It was not done in a
corner...
...and all the issues were well
understood...
...and the implications realized...
...but
it was decided not to trouble the church with
it.

4.
Now,
if that is true, and if I am not misreading you, then…

What
do you make of the following words of M. L. Andreasen?

-
Isn’t it obvious that these words of M. L. Andreasen is making it
quite clear that the reckoning of lunar months “does not in any way
affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not
affect the sabbath?”

- And isn’t it quite obvious from the
following quoted words of his, that M. L. Andreasen is not at odds
with anyone in the Committee re this particular?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L.,
Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed
scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”]
does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the
week, and hence does not affect the
sabbath…”

[Bracketed words added / Tree of Life
(c)]

Aren’t those words of
M. L. Andreasen quite at odds with your above insinuations, while
clearly indicating that no one in that Committee was ever even
considering a thing such as this construct called the “Lunar Sabbath
argument?”

5.

Please show me clearly where
I am missing something! I’ve read most of the Grace Amadon
Collection documents currently published at 4 Angel’s Publications.
Yet, I have failed to find anything of substance in support of this
so called Lunar Sabbath
argument...

6.
Nevertheless, I am also
seeing that the GC Committee was suffering from confusion re a
number of particulars.

Perhaps, for the purposes of this
thread, the most important among those confusions of the Committee
members is the obvious discrepancy between Grace E. Amadon’s
understanding, as expressed by the following words as quoted by her,
and between the very clear and obvious meaning of the words
themselves.

That is, from the context it is clear that Grace
E. Amadon and others in the Committee believed that Bliss and the
Millerites were reckoning Tishri 1, 1844 as beginning at sunset
October 12 and not “with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of
October…” as clearly stated by Bliss. The reasoning of the Committee
seems to be that each and all of the Feast Days were fixed once
Nisan 1 was determined (cf. her words in the remainder of this 3
page document of hers: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bliss, The Advent Shield,
January, 1845, p. 278-9 (as quoted by Amadon, Grace E., How
The Millerites Chose Oct. 22, p. 3
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/HowTheMilleritesChoseOct.pdf)

“Reckoning from this
[Nisan] moon, the seventh Jewish month
commenced with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of
October; so that the tenth day of the seventh month
synchronized with the 22d of that month.” –Bliss, The
Advent Shield, January, 1845, p. 278.

“It is
therefore evident that the seventh month must
have commenced with the new moon in October; and that
the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish Sacred year,
in A. D. 1844, could only synchronize with the 22d of that
month.” – Idem., p. 279.

[Color emphasis added / Tree
of Life
(c)]

7.
Could it
be that this whole ‘Lunar Sabbath argument’ is derived from this
very same misunderstanding - re a relative fixing of the seven
special Feast Days within any given Karaite year - a
misunderstanding evidently shared generally among the GC Committee
members?

I am hoping you will help us all by
shedding a little of your light upon these issues. How do you
perceive these items?

Peace over each family and over
each home that is honestly seeking for the realities of each
particular of importance,

Tree of Life
©

Last edited by Tree of Life ©; 12-17-2009 at 08:16
PM..

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06-26-2009

#2

pythons

Forum Member

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Seattle

Posts: 416

Reputation: 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That's the paradox
exactly...

These are not my 'apples' and
'oranges'...
...the 'apples' and 'oranges' belong to the
Karaites...
...and maybe the Karaites mixed their 'apples' and
'oranges'...
...but William Miller used the Karaites mixed
'apples and 'oranges'...
...to establish 31 AD in his prophetic
scheme that Seventh-day Adventists adopted.

So by embracing
William Millers scheme, SDA's embraced the Karaites mixed 'apples'
and 'oranges'.

I am not talking here about what you and I
believe...
...I am telling you that the Karaites did calculate
the weekly Sabbath...
...by reference to the Lunar
cycles.

William Miller then used the Karaite calculation
to...
...make 31 AD a viable date for inclusion in his prophetic
scheme...
...and to arrive at the 22 Oct 1844 Day of
Atonement...
...that marked the termination of the 2300 day/year
prophecy.

I am not presenting a personal idea...this is
history.

No...all that gives you is the
year.

If you start calculating the 'seventy-sevens' from 457
BC...
...and you insist on a strict fulfillment...
...you must
include 31 AD in the timeline to get to 1844...
...but there are
other criteria to meet to make 31 AD a viable year for the
crucifixion.

The criteria that must be satisfied to establish
a viable date for the crucifixion.

It must be in the spring
in the month following the Barley harvest.
In the month Nisan
(Abib). Deut. 16:1
On the 14th day of that month. Lev 23:5
On
the sixth day of the week. John 19:31
On a 'Preparation Day' (day
before the Sabbath) Matt 27:62
On a night of a full
moon.
Coinciding with a Passover. Lev 23:5
The beginning of
the feast of unleavened bread. Ex 12:18
Coinciding with a
Sabbath. Matt 28:1-2, John 19:31-32
The Wave Sheaf Offering and
Resurrection day must coincide. Lev. 23:9, Mark 16:9

This
criteria can not be satisfied in 31 AD if you run the current
Julian/Gregorian weeks back...
...it ends up happening on a
Tuesday/Wednesday...
...a Friday/Sabbath can only be satisfied in
30 AD and 33 AD...
...but William Miller was able to satisfy the
criteria by using the Karaite luni/solar calendar...
...because
it satisfies all the criteria every year...
...so 31 AD could fit
the prophecy and get him through to 1844.

If you Greg
and Jesus, Paul and the disciples observe(d) a successive weekly
seventh-day Sabbath that is fine...
...but this can not be
reconciled with William Millers use of a different form of Sabbath
to establish the foundation prophetic doctrine of your
church.

Let me state the Paradox another way...
...SDA's
adopted a successive weekly Sabbath...
...that contradicts the
form of Sabbath that was used to establish their prophetic
origin.

It
is my understanding that the weekly Sabbaths ran concurrent with the
Jewish liturgical year so that a Karite Jew would celebrate a weekly
Sabbath at the same time a Rabbinic Jew would. Perhaps I didn't understand
the point as you intended it.

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06-26-2009

#3

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

It is my understanding that the
weekly Sabbaths ran concurrent with the Jewish liturgical year so
that a Karite Jew would celebrate a weekly Sabbath at the same time
a Rabbinic Jew would. Perhaps I didn't understand the point as you
intended it.

The calendar William
Miller used to establish The Day of Atonement in 1844...
...used a
lunar Sabbath...
...weekly Sabbaths fell on day 8, 15, 22 and 29 of
each calendar month...
...this was the way Sabbaths were kept until
about the 4th Century.

See discussion...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/jews_and_sabbath.php

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-26-2009

#4

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The calendar William Miller used to
establish The Day of Atonement in 1844...
...used a lunar
Sabbath...
...weekly Sabbaths fell on day 8, 15, 22 and 29 of
each calendar month...
...this was the way Sabbaths were kept
until about the 4th Century.

See discussion...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/jews_and_sabbath.php

You
are right. I never realized that previously! It's stated with
velocity in the New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia pages 135 - 136.
The various other sources indicate that the origin of change was simply
commerce.

I'm not sure the average person would understand how
this effected it without first understanding how subsequent calendars from
the one stated in the Exodus do affect 'days'.

I can certainly see
the paradox! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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06-26-2009

#5

Troubleshooter

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Sabbath not Saturday or Sunday

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

You are right. I never
realized that previously! It's stated with velocity in the New
Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia pages 135 - 136. The various
other sources indicate that the origin of change was simply
commerce.

I'm not sure the average person would understand
how this effected it without first understanding how subsequent
calendars from the one stated in the Exodus do affect 'days'.

I can certainly see the paradox! Thanks for bringing it to
my attention.

You may also be
interested in another article on that site...
... in a talk-back radio
discussion...
...on January 5, 2006 Roman Catholic scholar/apologist
Patrick Madrid...
...confirmed the historical change from lunar to
solar reckoning of 'days'...
...stating that neither Saturday nor
Sunday is the Biblical Sabbath.

http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/catholic_scholar.php

I
do not support the central idea of this site, that lunar Sabbaths should
now be observed...
...I am reminded of Paul's criticism of the
Galatians...

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are
known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and
months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed
upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

...and his comments to
the Colossians...

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what
you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon
celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that
were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17

So although lunar determined Sabbaths are
the true Biblical Sabbaths...
...they are of no consequence to
believers under the New Covenant...
...except as part of the Old
Covenant 'shadow' whose reality was fulfilled in Christ.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-27-2009 at 12:10
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06-27-2009

#6

Haldog

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And why would anyone want to go back to those
things?

My wife and I were just discussing how so many of the
SDA's are fixated on worshiping on the Sabbath Day.

What do they
mean by worship? In my experience they may have a Friday evening bible
reading with family, then they go to church on Sabbath morning and spend
their time in SS telling each other how wonderful Ellen is, then they move
on into the sanctuary and hear the preacher talk about how wonderful Ellen
is and maybe even something about Jesus. Then they go to the fellowship
hall and eat the potluck and talk with their friends about work and the
kids (rarely about the goodness of God). On the drive home they will share
with the spouse all the good gossip that was heard between church and SS
and during the potluck. Get home and sleep and then look forward to
sundown so they can turn the TV on.

What about that is Sabbath
Keeping? And yet they will profess to having kept the Sabbath because they
didn't pay cash for lunch or fill the car up with gas.

__________________

I John 4:17...because as He is, so are we in this
world.

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06-27-2009

#7

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Haldog

And why would anyone want to go back
to those things?

My wife and I were just discussing how so
many of the SDA's are fixated on worshiping on the Sabbath Day.

What do they mean by worship? In my experience they may have
a Friday evening bible reading with family, then they go to church
on Sabbath morning and spend their time in SS telling each other how
wonderful Ellen is, then they move on into the sanctuary and hear
the preacher talk about how wonderful Ellen is and maybe even
something about Jesus. Then they go to the fellowship hall and eat
the potluck and talk with their friends about work and the kids
(rarely about the goodness of God). On the drive home they will
share with the spouse all the good gossip that was heard between
church and SS and during the potluck. Get home and sleep and then
look forward to sundown so they can turn the TV on.

What
about that is Sabbath Keeping? And yet they will profess to having
kept the Sabbath because they didn't pay cash for lunch or fill the
car up with gas.

We just returned a
few days ago from a vacation to visit my parents and my sister. They are
not traditional Adventists on many issues, including Sabbath-keeping. They
go to church on Sabbath, but otherwise they do regular everyday
activities. While we were there, we went out to eat with them on Sabbath
after church and then went to the zoo with my sister and her daughter.
That's how I was raised. However, they are upset that we no longer agree
with the Adventist view of the Sabbath even though they don't hold to
strict standards at all to govern their behavior on that day. I guess
claiming to believe in the Sabbath is all that's important to some
Adventists.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-28-2009

#8

Troubleshooter

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Sabbath idolatry?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

We just returned a few days ago from
a vacation to visit my parents and my sister. They are not
traditional Adventists on many issues, including Sabbath-keeping.
They go to church on Sabbath, but otherwise they do regular everyday
activities. While we were there, we went out to eat with them on
Sabbath after church and then went to the zoo with my sister and her
daughter. That's how I was raised. However, they are upset that we
no longer agree with the Adventist view of the Sabbath even though
they don't hold to strict standards at all to govern their behavior
on that day. I guess claiming to believe in the Sabbath is all
that's important to some
Adventists.

idolatrous -
definition

Given to blind or excessive devotion to
something:

"It perceives no virtue in its opponents and magnifies
its own" Christopher Lasch

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-28-2009 at 09:03
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06-28-2009

#9

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

idolatrous - definition

Given
to blind or excessive devotion to something:

"It
perceives no virtue in its opponents and magnifies its own"
Christopher Lasch

Perhaps
so. My family hasn't studied the issues in depth, and they don't pay much
attention to the details, but they are devoted to the Sabbath, at least as
a concept.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-29-2009

#10

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Perhaps so. My family hasn't studied
the issues in depth, and they don't pay much attention to the
details, but they are devoted to the Sabbath, at least as a
concept.

It's not a
biggie...
...and I did not mean to be judgemental...
...I too have
friends and relatives who have blind or excessive devotion to the
Sabbath...
...I just saw the connection with idolatry...
...I
wondered if the Lord made His rests to rely on the more organic lunar
cycles...
...so that they would be less repeatitious and hence less
prone to idolatry.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-27-2009

#11

Flyinglady

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Very Interesting

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

You may also be interested in
another article on that site...
... in a talk-back radio
discussion...
...on January 5, 2006 Roman Catholic
scholar/apologist Patrick Madrid...
...confirmed the historical
change from lunar to solar reckoning of 'days'...
...stating that
neither Saturday nor Sunday is the Biblical Sabbath.

http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/catholic_scholar.php

I
do not support the central idea of this site, that lunar Sabbaths
should now be observed...
...I am reminded of Paul's criticism of
the Galatians...

"But now, after that ye have known God, or
rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly
elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe
days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest
I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians
4:9-11

...and his comments to the
Colossians...

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what
you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon
celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things
that were to come; the reality, however, is found in
Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

So although lunar
determined Sabbaths are the true Biblical Sabbaths...
...they are
of no consequence to believers under the New
Covenant...
...except as part of the Old Covenant 'shadow' whose
reality was fulfilled in Christ.

Thanks
for all this information. I understand Paul much better.
Diana

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07-16-2009

#12

willy

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They can have it both ways.

Quote:

This criteria can not be satisfied in 31 AD if you run
the current Julian/Gregorian weeks back...
...it ends up
happening on a Tuesday/Wednesday...
...a Friday/Sabbath can only
be satisfied in 30 AD and 33 AD...
...but William Miller was able
to satisfy the criteria by using the Karaite luni/solar
calendar...
...because it satisfies all the criteria every
year...
...so 31 AD could fit the prophecy and get him through to
1844.

A Wednesday crucifxion is the true
biblical day, as opposed to the traditional Catholic Friday, so at this
point the sda's need only admit that Ellen was in error over that day, not
the sabbath or 1844.

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07-16-2009

#13

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

A Wednesday crucifxion is the true
biblical day, as opposed to the traditional Catholic Friday, so at
this point the sda's need only admit that Ellen was in error over
that day, not the sabbath or
1844.

Willy, would you hail from an
Adventist group like the C.O.G.? 1844 requires a 27 April date. Pull that
one bolt out and the golem collapses.

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07-16-2009

#14

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I don't think so

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Willy, would you hail from an
Adventist group like the C.O.G.? 1844 requires a 27 April date. Pull
that one bolt out and the golem
collapses.

Glad you didn't assume
more, as you hopefully know any admission of error on the part of Ellen
would be a grievous sin of insurmountable consequences,
no real sda
would even consider the possibility that Ellen made any error even if it
was to save the blessed sabbath or the sanctuary doctrine.

No I
just believe in a Wednesday crucifixion because of the Passover patter as
opposed to the easter bunny format.

I think the Golem would be most
uncomfortable with where I would place Millers chart.

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07-16-2009

#15

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

Glad you didn't assume more, as you
hopefully know any admission of error on the part of Ellen would be
a grievous sin of insurmountable consequences,

no real sda
would even consider the possibility that Ellen made any error even
if it was to save the blessed sabbath or the sanctuary
doctrine.

LOL. You've got some humor
and I like it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

No I just believe in a Wednesday
crucifixion because of the Passover patter as opposed to the easter
bunny format.

That went right over my
head man. I think that there is a real case for 3 April 33 myself but
that's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

I think the Golem would be most
uncomfortable with where I would place Millers
chart.

LOL. Miller's chart is what it
is. After reading what it took the Grace Amadon group to map out the
Miller beliefs I thought I was in danger of a stroke. The 1844 I.J. is a
classic Golem in my view, it serves to help keep the sheep in check.

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07-16-2009

#16

willy

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Can't trust the Golem

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

LOL. Miller's chart is what it is.
After reading what it took the Grace Amadon group to map out the
Miller beliefs I thought I was in danger of a stroke. The 1844 I.J.
is a classic Golem in my view, it serves to help keep the sheep in
check.

Like any good monster story,
inevitably the monster must turn on it's master, in this case the gentle
prediction that was supposed to guide the faithful to the heavenly kingdom
in 1844 has turned on them and has stolen their joy in a fearful
expectation of a judgment in which perfection is required.

In my
understanding of Golem mythology he was commanded by a scroll placed in
his mouth, of course it never went as ordered, hey you really did pick a
good analogy!!!

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07-16-2009

#17

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Casfor a Wednesday crucifixion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

A Wednesday crucifxion is the true
biblical day, as opposed to the traditional Catholic Friday, so at
this point the sda's need only admit that Ellen was in error over
that day, not the sabbath or 1844.

I
have reviewed several arguements for a Wednesday crucifixion...
...I
have found none of them very convincing...
...but I would like to hear
your reasons.

I understand the argument primarily relies on Matthew
12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
earth.”

Where a literal 'three nights and three days' is stictly
applied...
...and 'heart of the earth' is taken to mean 'dead' or 'in
the tomb'.

Is this how you understand it?

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#18

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I have reviewed several arguments
for a Wednesday crucifixion...
...I have found none of them very
convincing...
...but I would like to hear your reasons.

I
understand the argument primarily relies on Matthew 12:40 “For as
Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall
the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
earth.”

Where a literal 'three nights and three days' is
strictly applied...
...and 'heart of the earth' is taken to mean
'dead' or 'in the tomb'.

Is this how you understand
it?

Christ
followed the Passover pattern, on the tenth of Nissan the Passover lamb
was brought into the "house" and was kept until the 14th.

This
directly coincides with Christ entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, so in 4
days he would be sacrificed, adding 4 days to Sunday brings you to
Wednesday. His death being in the evening one would then count off the
three days and nights he said would bring you to sometime after sundown on
Saturday for the resurrection, the scripture records it was in the A.M. on
Sunday.

This holds to the P.O pattern and allows for the language
in the account to be accurate also when it records Sabbaths
plural.

There is also time between to account for the purchase of
spices by the women after the Passover Sabbath but before the weekly
one.

It would also be impossible to get 1.5 to 2 million people out
of Egypt and to the other side of the red sea in one day, three full days
would have been required to make the journey.

And yes I believe
Christ said in the heart of the earth to mean Sheol, the place of the
dead, Jonah records that he called to God from Sheol.

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07-16-2009

#19

Troubleshooter

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An interesting set of assumptions
Willy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

Christ followed the Passover
pattern, on the tenth of Nissan the Passover lamb was brought into
the "house" and was kept until the
14th.

I agree

Quote:

This directly coincides with Christ entering Jerusalem on
Palm Sunday, so in 4 days he would be sacrificed, adding 4
days to Sunday brings you to Wednesday. His death being in
the evening one would then count off the three days and nights he
said would bring you to sometime after sundown on Saturday for the
resurrection, the scripture records it was in the A.M. on Sunday.

Why do you think Jesus entered Jerusalem
on Sunday?

Quote:

This holds to the P.O pattern and allows for the language
in the account to be accurate also when it records Sabbaths plural.

So you are assuming the Hebrew calendar
was running parallel to a weekly calendar that was identical to the Julian
calendar?

Do you know of another example of this in
scripture?

Quote:

There is also time between to account for the purchase of
spices by the women after the Passover Sabbath but before the weekly
one.

Hmmm...ok.

Quote:

It would also be impossible to get 1.5 to 2 million
people out of Egypt and to the other side of the red sea in one day,
three full days would have been required to make the journey.

When do you think they started the
journey?

Quote:

And yes I believe Christ said in the heart of the earth
to mean Sheol, the place of the dead, Jonah records that he called
to God from Sheol.

Have you ever tried to
apply this scheme to a timeline?

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07-16-2009

#20

willy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Why do you think Jesus entered
Jerusalem on Sunday?

Doing so on the
Sabbath would not have been in accordance with the law, and would have
been counter productive to Christ's goal of Jewish conversion to
Him.

There also was the need to fill the pattern of Passover type,
the day also works because counting back wards from a Sunday resurrection,
a fairly well established point, the accounting of days is perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

So you are assuming the Hebrew
calendar was running parallel to a weekly calendar that was
identical to the Julian
calendar?

Actually I never considered
it, the primary reason I don't see it as a factor is that what ever year,
or calender that was in place at his death, it lines up with the
prophecy's of his death, the key component is Sunday, the first fruits was
a Sunday based festival as was Weeks, each of these lines up with a Sunday
resurrection.

This means that unleavened bread, first fruits, and
Weeks (Pentecost) all lined up with the Hebrew festival timing while
passover did not?

Hmmm...ok.

You don't see the
significance do you, read Luke 23:56
Then they went home and prepared
spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the
commandment.

This means that while Christ was still on the cross
they were out buying spices, but the Gospel accounts say that they
followed Joseph to the tomb.

The women needed to purchase and
prepare them all on Friday after following Christ to the Tomb which was no
sooner than 4:00 since he did not die until 3:00 get back to town just as
sabbath is starting and purchase "kosher" spices from Jews on Sabbath and
then prepare them all before sundown at 6:00 very fast women. (which
actually was impossible because one account says they were with him until
sundown.)

When do you think they started the journey?

14th
of Nissan

Have you ever tried to apply this scheme to a time
line?

This is not my creation, most Jews who convert to
Christianity believe in a Wednesday Crucifixion, it has been done by many
authors, Kevin Conner, Alfred Edershiem, Bruce Scott, and yes I have
personally laid out the timing of the events against the Passover pattern
and they fit perfectly with Wednesday being the day.

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07-17-2009

#21

Troubleshooter

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Jesus Final Week...a suggested
timeline...

The following chart fits the 'Passover
model'...
...the timeline begins with "...Jesus six days before the
passover came to Bethany..."
...this would be Nisan 9 and then
entering Jerusalem as you suggest on Nisan 10.

A
suggested parallel Julian calendar reckoning is included...
...but this
could only apply in 30 AD and 33 AD.

Any comments?

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07-17-2009

#22

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The following chart fits the
'Passover model'...
...the timeline begins with "...Jesus six
days before the passover came to Bethany..."
...this would be
Nisan 9 and then entering Jerusalem as you suggest on Nisan
10.

A
suggested parallel Julian calendar reckoning is
included...
...but this could only apply in 30 AD and 33
AD.

Any comments?

Trouble,
I have been fascinated by this thread and appreciate all your hard
work.

Question on the Chart. I see only 3 days and 2 nights in the
tomb for Jesus. Jesus said he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3
nights.

Ghostrider 3

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07-18-2009

#23

Troubleshooter

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The heart of the earth...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda3324

Trouble, I have been fascinated by
this thread and appreciate all your hard work.

Question on
the Chart. I see only 3 days and 2 nights in the tomb for Jesus.
Jesus said he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3
nights.

The text actually uses the
term 'heart of the earth' not 'in the tomb'...
...and I think that
Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' from the moment He was arrested in
Gethemane...
...as soon as He was under the sovereignty of 'earthy'
men, in the sense that Paul uses it in 1 Corinthians 15:47-49

"The
first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and
as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have
borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the
heavenly.

Jesus references to His death and resurrection are
always accompanied by reference to His betrayal and
ill-treatment.

"From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His
disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things
of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be
raised again the third day." Matthew 16:21

"Jesus said unto them,
the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they
shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again." Matthew
17:22

"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall
be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they
shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock
and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise
again." Matthew 20:18

"Son of man must suffer many things and be
rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be
killed, and after three days rise again." Mark 8:31

"For He taught
His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the
hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He
shall rise the third day." Mark 9:31

"...and they shall mock
Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill
Him, and the third day He shall rise again." Mark 10:34

"Saying,
the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders
and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third
day." Luke 9:22

"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things
that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be
accomplished, for He shall be delivered unto the Gentiles and shall be
mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on, and they shall scourge
Him, and put Him to death, and the third day He shall rise again."
Luke 18:31

"The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of
men, crucified, and the third day rise again." Luke 24:7

"And
said unto them, thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to
suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke
24:46

So Jesus was 'in the heart of the earth' as soon as this
process began...
...until the resurrection...
...'three days and
three nights'.

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07-17-2009

#24

willy

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Good chart

It makes no accounting of the women and when
they were preparing and purchasing of the spices, scripture indicates they
rested after the purchase of the spices.

It also fails to take into
account Hebrew law about death, to be legally dead under Hebrew law a
person needs to be dead 3 full days not partial days, this was not a
technicality of ritual but a literal requirement, the thought was that the
spirit lingered for 3 days, so the partial day accounting method does not
work, Christ used the principle with Lazarus.

Christ was required
to fulfill all aspects of ther law including being legally dead, a partial
day would mean he was not dead under the law.

I could see that
entry was on the 10th a Monday, many think that a Thursday Crucifixion was
likely I can see why now, but I would disagree with it on Friday because
that would place his death 4 days from the 10th.

The one thing I
see most Christians do that Jews do not is relate Passover to Christ's
death, actually Passover was about the exit from Egypt, so Christ's death
would follow that pattern,

I am also unsure why he created a gap in
his diagram in regards to the Passover he "ends"
the PO at midnight
Thursday and then resumes it on Friday at noon, that makes no sense except
to fit the Crucifixion on the desired Friday.

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07-19-2009

#25

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

It makes no accounting of the women
and when they were preparing and purchasing of the spices, scripture
indicates they rested after the purchase of the
spices.

John 19:38-42 "And after this
Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of
the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and
Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night,
and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound
weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen
clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in
the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a
new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus
therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh
at hand."

Jesus died at 3:00pm and sunset in April in Jerusalem is
approximately 6:00pm...
...Joseph and Nicodemus applied 100 pounds
weight of myrh and aloes...
...and had Jesus wrapped in linen and layed
in the new garden tomb.

Anything the women did would simply have
been adjunctive...
...probably as a mark of respect...
...it is
unclear from the text when they purchased spices.

Quote:

It also fails to take into account Hebrew law about
death, to be legally dead under Hebrew law a person needs to be dead
3 full days not partial days, this was not a technicality of ritual
but a literal requirement, the thought was that the spirit lingered
for 3 days, so the partial day accounting method does not work,
Christ used the principle with Lazarus.

Christ was required
to fulfill all aspects of ther law including being legally dead, a
partial day would mean he was not dead under the law.

While Jesus fulfilled 'the law'...
...I
don't think that means all the midrah and casuistry that attached itself
to 'the law'.

A spear in the side and no need to break His
legs...
...I think Roman soldiers knew when someone in their charge was
dead.

Quote:

I could see that entry was on the 10th a Monday, many
think that a Thursday Crucifixion was likely I can see why now, but
I would disagree with it on Friday because that would place his
death 4 days from the 10th.

Jesus did
enter on the 10th and He did die on the 14th...
...if the 10th Nisan
was a Monday, then Friday was the 14th Nisan...
...where do you get the
Thursday from?

Quote:

The one thing I see most Christians do that Jews do not
is relate Passover to Christ's death, actually Passover was about
the exit from Egypt, so Christ's death would follow that pattern,

I think the Exodus Passover was engineered
to prophetically describe Jesus death.

Quote:

I am also unsure why he created a gap in his diagram in
regards to the Passover he "ends"
the PO at midnight Thursday and
then resumes it on Friday at noon, that makes no sense except to fit
the Crucifixion on the desired Friday.

The
gap in the chart is only because it has been stretched...
...it was not
done to indicate any sessation in the Passover season of
feasts.

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08-21-2009

#26

jaman

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Essenes - Dead Sea Scrolls Calendar

Quote:

THE CALENDRICAL DOCUMENT
SCROLL
A
TRANSLATION
1. [on the first {day} in {the week
of} Jedaiah {which falls} on the tw]elfth in it {the seventh month}.
On the second {day} in {the week of} Abiah {which falls} on the
twenty- f[ifth in the eighth {month}; and duqah {is} on the third]
{day} 2. [in {the week of} Miyamin {which falls} on the twelfth] in
it {the eighth month}. On the third {day} in {the week of} Jaqim
{which falls} on the twen[ty-fourth in the ninth {month}; and duqah
{is} on the fourth] {day} 3. [in {the week of} Shekania {which
falls} on the eleven]th in it {the ninth month}. On the fifth {day}
in {the week of} Immer {which falls} on the twe[n]ty-third in the
te[nth {month}; and duqah {is} on the sixth {day} in {the week of}
Je]shbeab {which falls} 4. [on the tenth in] it {the tenth month}.
On the [si]xth {day} in {the week of} Jehezkel {which falls} on the
twenty-second in the eleventh month [and duqah {is on the} Sabbath
in] {the week of} Petahah {which falls} 5. [on the ninth in it {the
eleventh month}]. On the first {day} in {the week of} Joiarib {which
falls} on the t[w]enty-second in the twelfth month; and [duqah {is}
on the seco]nd {day} in {the week of} Delaiah {which falls} 6. [on
the ninth in it {the twelfth month}. vacat The] se[cond] {year}: The
first {month}. On the sec[on]d {day} in {the week of} Malakiah
{which falls} on the tw[entieth in it {the first month}; and] duqah
{is} 7. [on the third {day} in {the week of} Harim {which falls} on
the seventh] in it {the first month}. On the fou[r]th {day} in {the
week of} Jeshua {which falls} [on] the twentieth in the second
{month}; and [duqah {is} on the fifth {day} in {the week of]} Haqqos
{which falls} on the seventh 8. [in it {the second month}. On the
fifth {day} in {the week of} Huppah {which falls} on the nine]teenth
in the third {month}; and duqa[h] {is} on the six[th {day} in {the
week of} Happisses {which falls}

This tends to suggest that a very
complicated 7 day cycle coinciding with a lunar calendar was in use.

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12-08-2009

#27

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Congratulations Trouble Shooter! You're right re the Paradox! -
But not re...!

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

1.

First of all, let me commend
you on your clear, concise, and accurate presentation of The Adventist
Sabbath Paradox as found within parts of the above post of yours (as also
quoted in part below.)

- In your post you are indeed showing that,
in 31AD, Abib/Nisan 14 and the Day of Passover (the day prior to the First
Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) did fall out on a Tuesday/Wednesday
(April 24/25) and that the subsequent Day, the First Day of the Feast,
Abib 15, did not fall out on a Seventh-day Sabbath, beginning on a Friday
night at sunset, as required by the Gospels and by Ellen White both. [This
is very easily confirmed by using the tools found at the following links:
1) nr.com/julian.txt and 2) eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html
while looking for a full moon in Abib/Nisan/month number 1, falling
between April 8 and May 6, as required by the reckoning of the Millerites,
i.e. as per the General Conference Committee report (Part V, p.9, l.3) of
SDAs in 1938/1939 (cf.
4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF)]

- I find
this a most important observation of yours! One requiring further study
into the reality upon which the Holy Scriptures are indeed based! So how
are we doing on that study of ours? Are we doing as the Bereans did? Or,
are we, whether Seventh-day Adventists or otherwise, more like the
Thessalonians, and less noble than the Bereans? Are we continuing along
the Way towards a correct understanding of Truth and Real Life history as
required by the Holy Scriptures and by Ellen White's Desire of Ages as
quoted elsewhere by you? Or, are we burying our heads in the sand
unwilling to perceive the scary and ugly truth of our own ignorance and
errors that is staring us in our face?

- It certainly does follow,
from your observation, that the 2,300 year prophecy as commonly (but cf.
those that I am being blessed to share with you all!) presented - as based
upon the key years 457BC, 27AD, 31AD, 34AD, and 1844AD - does not hold up
to closer scrutiny, given - or provided - that Abib 15 in the year of
crucifixion did fall on a regular non-lunar Seventh Day of the week. The
only way for 31AD to be the year of crucifixion, given the testimony of
the Gospel writers, is - as you say - for the weekly Sabbaths to be lunar
based. Or so it seems... And yes, Ellen White is supporting said
457-27-31-34-1844 application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings
prophecy... {DA 233.1-3.} Or so it seems, and yet she also has this to say
re the 1843 chart upon which said 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy is
the central theme:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen G. White, Early Writings, p.
74.1

“I have seen that the 1843 chart was
directed by the hand of the Lord, and that
it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them;
that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some
of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.” {EW 74.1}
[Emphasis
added / Tree of Life (c)]]

- So
indeed, you are quite correct in stating that there is an Adventist
Sabbath Paradox! Congratulations!

* * * * * *
*

On the other hand, the GC Committee, claimed that: "6.
Friday, April 27,, 31 A.D., Julian time, has been demonstrated to be the
only date during the public ministry of Christ which satisfies (a) the
Bible requirement for a Friday-passover crucifixion and (b) the definite
demands of astronomy for the corresponding coincident positions of sun,
moon, and earth..." (cf. the concluding page, "52," of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF)

- Obviously
April 27, 31 AD was a Friday. So far the Committee was correct. So where
did they go wrong? Or did they? Let's see...

- The astronomical
full moon occurred on April 25, 31 AD at 19:59 + 02:21 = 22:20 Jerusalem
solar time (late Wednesday night.) The first Scriptural/Jewish day
following that full moon began on Thursday night, i.e. on the 6th Day of
the week. Per the Committee's report the "Pashal moon" was, and is, none
other than the day following the astronomical full moon (cf. #1. full
report on p. "37," last paragraph, through p. "42" of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF #2. p."33," l.9 of
the same link, #3. top line on p. 5 of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/BriefReviewNewViewsRegardingMilleriteChronology.pd
f, and #4. lines 6 and 7 from the bottom of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/Jewish%20Feast%20Cycle%20(1843%20and%201844).PDF
.)

- Seems to me the Committee's report re the varying lengths of
translation periods of the moon is sound so far as the years 28-33 AD are
concerned, doesn't it?! After all, their calculations of the paschal full
moons for those years were made for them by a representative of the U.S.
Naval Observatory, or isn't that true? [Cf. Research Committee Final
Report, Part V, p. 38A, bottom of the page!] Accordingly, it seems as
though we are dealing with a Friday, Abib 14, 31 AD crucifixion after all
- and to the exclusion of all the other years from 28AD-33AD, aren't we?
And it seems as though at least I (I cannot know about you, can I?) have
not taken those varible translation periods into account in my reckoning
of the dates...

- But, we are not finished at that point! Many
problems remain, that are not solved by 31AD, nor by any of the years 28AD
through 33AD! So what are we to do with all of that . . . ? So, please
stay with me through the end of this
post...

2.

Second, let me point out that
there is more to the story than that! Our beloved Seventh-day Adventist
pioneers did an excellent job in doing as the Bereans did. They insisted
adamantly that we are never to formulate a creed other than such as is
perhaps most accurately and most concisely formulated in John 17:17:

Quote:

Originally Posted by John 17:17 KJV

Sanctify them
through thy truth: thy word is
truth.

I am convinced that
none among our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers would have stood for
that which is being presented in the form of a creed and under the title
Seventh-day Adventists Believe. Yet, their lives were short and they were
not able to carry their studies unto perfection. For instance, John E.
Andrews died at a tender age of only 54... Would they have lived longer, I
have no doubt but that they would have carried their studies onwards to
further hights. It is for us, each of us, you and me, to carry forwards
those studies that they began!

You have listed in your post some
"criteria that must be satisfied to establish a viable date for the
crucifixion," haven't you? But isn't it true that a number of those
"criteria..." are based upon an assumption that Jesus must necessarily be
represented by no other sacrifice than that which was given on the eve
between Abib 14 and Abib 15? Who is to say that he isn't much better
represented by the sacrifice given on the Sabbath morning [sic] when - as
in those days - the Wave Shief sacrifice was being observed?

Allow
me to question the viability of those "criteria..." below that I have
high-lighted in red font:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...

It [the crucifixion] must
be in the spring in the month following the Barley harvest.
In
the month Nisan (Abib). Deut. 16:1
On the 14th
day of that month. Lev 23:5
On the sixth day of the week.
John 19:31
On a 'Preparation Day' (day before the Sabbath) Matt
27:62
On a night of a full moon.Coinciding with a
Passover. Lev 23:5
The beginning of the feast of unleavened
bread. Ex 12:18
Coinciding with a Sabbath. Matt 28:1-2, John
19:31-32
The Wave Sheaf Offering and Resurrection day must
coincide. Lev. 23:9, Mark 16:9

[Bracketed comment and
color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

Besides, aren't those criteria
in parts self-contradictory? For instance, you are listing both the 6th
and the 7th Days of the week as criteria for the crucifixion day. Isn't
that impossible? Likewise you've listed both the "the 14th day of that
month" and "The beginning of the feast of unleavened bread," i.e. the 15th
day of the month, haven't you?

Why do you associate Lev:9[-12] with
the resurrection and the opening of the tomb (Mark 16:9?) Isn't that
association based merely upon the traditional and erroneous belief that
those events occurred at dawn of a Sunday morning and not at the sunset
beginning the Third Day [of the week] as recorded elsewhere in some 16 NT
passages?

What exactly do you mean by your "criteria... On a night
of a full moon.Coinciding with a Passover" and how is that "criteria"
being based upon "Lev 23:5?" Are you talking about the astronomical full
moon as referenced in NASA's Phases of the Moon tables, or are you making
a similar claim as is made by the GC Committee, that is, that the
passover, Nisan 14, must follow the astronomical full moon day?: "Bible...
commanded that the 14th of Nisan should follow the day of full moon in
Jerusalem" (cf. the following:

#1. full report on p. "37," last
paragraph, through p. "42" of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF

#2. p."33,"
l.9 of the same link,

#3. top line on p. 5 of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/BriefReviewNewViewsRegardingMilleriteChronology.pd
f, and

#4. lines 6 and 7 from the bottom of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/Jewish%20Feast%20Cycle%20(1843%20and%201844).PDF.)

*
* * * * * *

The proof - and the Present Truth - in
support of your "Adventist Sabbath Paradox"

Well, without
getting further into those assumptions which we have inherited largely by
means of Roman Catholic Church traditions etc., allow me to proceed
towards the heart of the issue dealt with in that Research Committee Final
Report, Part V:

Is there an easy way for us to double check,
against real time reality, "the new and full moon dates [that] were
computed from Shram's Tables by Glenn Draper, Associate Astronomer at the
U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington D.C. [for] (c) General Conference
Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists?"

Indeed there is! For the
last 10 years plus the Karaites have been carefully observing and
recording for us the actual new moon crescents as observed from the
horizon of Israel. Cf. the table at bottom of the page:
groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/

And it's easy to apply
the same type of computations used for the Research Committee by the U.S.
Naval Observatory upon this same recent 10 year period, for, and please
correct me if I am wrong!, all one has to do is to reckon the astronomical
full moon day (from the Jerusalem horizon) as the 13th of any Jewish month
and to then compute the predicted New Moon crescent as the beginning of
the 1st day of the same Jewish month. In fact, while working on this very
post for the purpose of sorting these things out in my own mind, I have
done exactly that... You are invited to scrutinize my work by reviewing my
Excel sheet at this link:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/GraceAmadonCollection/ResearchCommitteeFinalReport/31adCrucifixionAndLongTranslationPeriodsVs10YearsO
bservations.xls

What is the result of that study of mine? Well, it
is clear as crystal, isn't it?!!! Look at the rightmost column,
highlighted in red color, and you'll notice that the real time Karaite
observations for these last 10 years preceeded(!) the predicted
first possible visibility of the New Moon as computed by the U.S.
Naval Observatory representative for the Research Committee by 1-3, an
average of 1.4, days! That's a no no, indeed! Or, isn't it? In contrast
the computations I've been using - and which I believe you have been using
similarly - are exactly as expected, with less than one third (0.3) of the
actual observations falling a day after, not ever before, the
predicted first possible observation of the New Moon crescent.

Thus, the U.S. Naval Observatory's computations do not hold up to
reality, or at least not to the reality observed in real time by the
Karaites. It is, however, not impossible that they may hold up to the
reality of the Rabbi's computations for the Jewish calendar, I don't
know... Regardless, it is obvious to me that the faults of the Reasearch
Committee are due to their baseless reliance upon authorities of men and
the computations of such, and not upon the first hand observations of that
which they should have been really looking for, that is, observations
strictly in line with that which was laid down for us by God and through
Moses in the Scriptures. And yet again, very likely, the Research
Committee had no such real time observations available to them and so they
were stranded with the best evidence available to them at the time... That
is, "the present truth" of what was currently available at that time and
place for those people, those "Bereans." And, of course that goes for the
Millerites in the 1840ies too, doesn't it?!

* * * * * *
*

3.

Third and last, you should take careful
notice of this fact of life: The Friday
crucifixion, that is, the crucifixion upon the Sixth Jewish Day of
the week, called for by the Research Committee in
Part V of their Final Report, is a regular non-lunar based
day of the week!

No doubt you can confirm this fact for
yourself by looking carefully at the highlighted boxed in words on the
center of page 38A of said Part V, that is, these words: "CRUCIFIXION
FRIDAY, APRIL 27, 31 A.D." and the adjoining pages?

I am
perceiving zero evidence in their Final Report that the Research Committee
were perceiving the Karaites - or the Millerites - as using a lunar based
week or a lunar based Sabbath.

So, if you still believe that they
are, you have still to show me any evidence to that effect! Please do - if
you have it!

Peace to all of us and to each our
families and homes,

Tree of Life
(c)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Paradox, Conradiction and
Criteria

That's the paradox exactly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

1844 depends on Jesus being
crucified in 31 AD...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg
Goodchild

Greg - 1844 is a
reference to an annual Sabbath not a weekly
Sabbath...

...

...I
am telling you that the Karaites did calculate the weekly
Sabbath...
...by reference to the Lunar cycles.

William
Miller then used the Karaite calculation to...
...make 31 AD a
viable date for inclusion in his prophetic scheme...
...and to
arrive at the 22 Oct 1844 Day of Atonement...
...that marked the
termination of the 2300 day/year prophecy.

...

The
criteria that must be satisfied to establish a viable date for the
crucifixion.

It must be in the spring in the month following
the Barley harvest.
In the month Nisan (Abib). Deut.
16:1
On the 14th day of that month. Lev
23:5
On the sixth day of the week. John 19:31
On a
'Preparation Day' (day before the Sabbath) Matt 27:62
On a night of a full moon.Coinciding with a Passover. Lev
23:5
The beginning of the feast of unleavened bread. Ex
12:18
Coinciding with a Sabbath. Matt 28:1-2, John
19:31-32
The Wave Sheaf Offering and Resurrection day must
coincide. Lev. 23:9, Mark 16:9

This criteria can not
be satisfied in 31 AD if you run the current Julian/Gregorian weeks
back...
...it ends up happening on a Tuesday/Wednesday...
...a
Friday/Sabbath can only be satisfied in 30 AD and 33 AD...
...but
William Miller was able to satisfy the criteria by using the Karaite
luni/solar calendar...
...because it satisfies all the criteria
every year...
...so 31 AD could fit the prophecy and get him
through to 1844.

...

Let me
state the Paradox another way...
...SDA's adopted a successive
weekly Sabbath...
...that contradicts the form of Sabbath that
was used to establish their prophetic origin.

[Color
emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

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12-08-2009

#28

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

Is there a more essential "Follower of Christ Paradox?"

So,
my dear Trouble Shooter,

To sum up and recap just a little of
what I perceive most essential in all of this... (cf. my last post above
as also partly quoted below!)

It is certainly true that from time
to time - providing we are willing to admit it to ourselves and/or to
others - we do wake up to a realization that in the past and up until the
present time we have been in error, and we have been blind and ignorant,
regarding this or that particular. Sometimes these confusions and errors
of ours may be of great significance and importance, otherwise less
so.

Yes, the SDA General Conference Research Committee of 1938/39
were in error re the validity of a 31 A.D. Friday, Aviv 14, crucifixion.
And yes, the Millerites must accordingly have also been in error re their
association of a 31 A.D. crucifixion and the 2,300 evenings and mornings,
albeit their error seems to have been different from that which are
attributed to them by the 1938/39 committee. Accordingly there certainly
is an Adventist Sabbath Paradox re those particulars as connected one with
the other - which cannot be! Which paradox naturally would then apply
equally to any adherent of such paradoxical teachings, that is, in the
face of such errors being presently replaced by new and better light, by
higher truths and higher vistas...

On the other hand, and much more
importantly: Is there a reality to our claims of being followers of
Christ? Or are we standing still, refusing to move onwards, when the Holy
Spirit is calling our attention to errors in our prior thinking? Is there
a reality to our claims of being Bible based Christians, whether
Seventh-day Adventists or any others, such that when being faced with
errors in detail re our prior faith and points of beliefs, we do like the
Bereans did? Are we trusting the validity and truth of the Holy
Scriptures, such that when being faced with a realization that a prior
stand of ours was baseless or all too superficially based, we are willing
to dive deeper into the origins of the Scriptures - even unto the very
bottom of things, unto the ultimate beginnings, to the points that are
solidly tied to our Creator, the one Rock of Ages, our Savior, the One
true Light? Are we willing to do as Yehoshua did? Are we willing to have
each our heads rubbed in with the anointing oil that alone can make any of
us more like Christ, more like the pattern into which our Creator, the
Potter above all, would have us be?

Or...

Could it be
that the real Christian Paradox is that while professing to be "followers
of Christ" we are not willing to accept His many and insistent invitations
to follow Him even one little step, even one little line, and even one
little precept in the direction of more truth and a healthier, happier,
and more godly life style?

Are we, I and you, willing to heed the
"strong voice..." of the "angel [that] come down from heaven, having great
power... saying, Come out of her [the States and/or belief systems
(churches and creeds) voted into existence by you or I,] my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues?"
(Revelation 18:1-5.)

Are we willing to be followers of Him who is
identifying Himself in Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of [whichever State we claim we live in,] out
of the house of bondage?"

Shalom,

Tree of Life
(c)

PS. Or is it not true that the past errors in
detail re the prior application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings are
presently being replaced by a richer, more comprehensive and more
meaningful light to us here today who are having so many of our families
destroyed and shredded to pieces by powers supplied without much
discretion, senselessly, and for all our detriment, by each our State and
by its representatives - not excluding anyone identifying himself or
herself by means of a State issued Drivers License or ID Card?

Or
what about all of that which you may each study into at this link?:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm

[And please don't forget: Do remove each and every space
out of the URLs I'm providing - or they won't
work...]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

1.

First of all,
let me commend you on your clear, concise, and accurate presentation
of The Adventist Sabbath Paradox...

- In your post you
are indeed showing that, in 31AD, Abib/Nisan 14 and the Day of
Passover (the day prior to the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened
Bread) did fall out on a Tuesday/Wednesday (April 24/25) and that
the subsequent Day, the First Day of the Feast, Abib 15, did not
fall out on a Seventh-day Sabbath, beginning on a Friday night at
sunset, as required by the Gospels and by Ellen White
both...

- I find this a most important observation of
yours! One requiring further study into the reality upon which the
Holy Scriptures are indeed based!...

- It certainly
does follow, from your observation, that the 2,300 year prophecy as
commonly (but cf. those that I am being blessed to share with you
all!) presented - as based upon the key years 457BC, 27AD, 31AD,
34AD, and 1844AD - does not hold up to closer scrutiny, given - or
provided - that Abib 15 in the year of crucifixion did fall on a
regular non-lunar Seventh Day of the week...

- So
indeed, you are quite correct in stating that there is an Adventist
Sabbath Paradox! Congratulations!...

- Seems to me
the Committee's report re the varying lengths of translation periods
of the moon is sound so far as the years 28-33 AD are concerned,
doesn't it?! After all, their calculations of the paschal full moons
for those years were made for them by a representative of the U.S.
Naval Observatory, or isn't that true?... Accordingly, it seems as
though we are dealing with a Friday, Abib 14, 31 AD crucifixion
after all - and to the exclusion of all the other years from
28AD-33AD, aren't we? And it seems as though at least I (I cannot
know about you, can I?) have not taken those varible translation
periods into account in my reckoning of the
dates...

2.

Second...

The
proof - and the Present Truth - in support of your "Adventist
Sabbath Paradox"

Well, without getting further into
those assumptions which we have inherited largely by means of Roman
Catholic Church traditions etc., allow me to proceed towards the
heart of the issue dealt with in that Research Committee Final
Report, Part V:

Is there an easy way for us to double check,
against real time reality, "the new and full moon dates [that] were
computed from Shram's Tables by Glenn Draper, Associate Astronomer
at the U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington D.C. [for] (c) General
Conference Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists?"

Indeed
there is! For the last 10 years plus the Karaites have been
carefully observing and recording for us the actual new moon
crescents as observed from the horizon of Israel. Cf. the table at
bottom of the page:
groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/

And it's easy to
apply the same type of computations used for the Research Committee
by the U.S. Naval Observatory upon this same recent 10 year period,
for, and please correct me if I am wrong!, all one has to do is to
reckon the astronomical full moon day (from the Jerusalem horizon)
as the 13th of any Jewish month and to then compute the predicted
New Moon crescent as the beginning of the 1st day of the same Jewish
month. In fact, while working on this very post for the purpose of
sorting these things out in my own mind, I have done exactly that...
You are invited to scrutinize my work by reviewing my Excel sheet at
this link:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/GraceAmadonCollection/ResearchCommitteeFinalReport/31adCrucifixionAndLongTranslationPeriodsVs10YearsO
bservations.xls

What is the result of that study of mine?
Well, it is clear as crystal, isn't it?!!! Look at the rightmost
column, highlighted in red color, and you'll notice that the real
time Karaite observations for these last 10 years preceded(!)
the predicted first possible visibility of the New Moon as
computed by the U.S. Naval Observatory representative for the
Research Committee by 1-3, an average of 1.4, days! That's a no no,
indeed! Or, isn't it? In contrast the computations I've been using -
and which I believe you have been using similarly - are exactly as
expected, with less than one third (0.3) of the actual observations
falling a day after, not ever before, the predicted first
possible observation of the New Moon crescent.

Thus, the
U.S. Naval Observatory's computations do not hold up to reality, or
at least not to the reality observed in real time by the Karaites.
It is, however, not impossible that they may hold up to the reality
of the Rabbi's computations for the Jewish calendar, I don't know...
Regardless, it is obvious to me that the faults of the Research
Committee are due to their baseless reliance upon authorities of men
and the computations of such, and not upon the first hand
observations of that which they should have been really looking for,
that is, observations strictly in line with that which was laid down
for us by God and through Moses in the Scriptures. And yet again,
very likely, the Research Committee had no such real time
observations available to them and so they were stranded with the
best evidence available to them at the time... That is, "the present
truth" of what was currently available at that time and place for
those people, those "Bereans." And, of course that goes for the
Millerites in the 1840ies too, doesn't it?!

* * * * *
* *

3.

Third and last, you should take
careful notice of this fact of life: The Friday
crucifixion, that is, the crucifixion upon the Sixth Jewish
Day of the week, called for by the Research
Committee in Part V of their Final Report, is
a regular non-lunar based day of the week!

No doubt
you can confirm this fact for yourself by looking carefully at the
highlighted boxed in words on the center of page 38A of said Part V,
that is, these words: "CRUCIFIXION FRIDAY, APRIL 27, 31 A.D."
and the adjoining
pages?

Last edited by Tree of Life ©; 12-08-2009 at 03:16
PM..

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12-17-2009

#29

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

The 1939 SDA Committee vs. your claim of "a lunar driven Sabbath"
of the Karaites

For
the sake of clarity: I am actually quoting Greg in my above use of the
term 'a lunar driven Sabbath.' I am using said term in reference to
Troubleshooter's contension re weeks and Sabbaths being originally and
continually controlled and reckoned based upon the beginnings of lunar
months:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Greg - ...So if you want to
discuss Passover as a lunar driven Sabbath
please feel free to do so.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of
Life (c)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...the main contension of this
thread.

SDA origins were established using a
Karaite Lunar calendar whose Sabbath was determined by a cycle that
renewed each New Moon...

[Color emphasis added / Tree
of Life
(c)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Congratulations Trouble
Shooter! You're right re the Paradox! - But not
re...!

Reviewing,
digging deeper, growing onwards along the Way…

- While adding,
modifying, correcting as needed unto my own prior
post…

Dear Trouble
Shooter,

There is certainly no question but that the 1939 SDA
GC Research Committee Final Report is claiming none other day for the day
of crucifixion than Friday, April 27, 31 A.D., is there?!

The
Committee is claiming that Friday, April 27, 31 A.D., Julian calendar, is
the Sixth Day of the week, Nisan 14, and Passover Day of the Jewish
calendar, are they not?! Or isn’t that quite clear from their statements
in Research Committee Final Report, Part V:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1939 SDA General Conference
Research Committee Final Report, Part V

[Item #6 on page 52:]

6.
Friday April 27,, 31 A.D., Julian Time, has
been demonstrated to be the only date during the public ministry of
Christ which satisfies (a) the Bible requirement for a Friday-passover crucifixion and (b) the definite
requirements of astronomy for the corresponding coincident positions
of sun, moon, and earth.”

[The last sentence of the first
full paragraph on page 40:]

This then leaves 31 A. D. as
the only year within the period of Christ’s public ministry with a
Passover on Friday. It came on April 27, Nisan
14--meeting all the requisite factors.

[Color
emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

I
have found no evidence anywhere that the Committee is claiming either for
themselves, or for the Millerites in the 1840ies, that "Tue/Wed, April
24/25, 31 A.D., Julian calendar," is Day Six of the week, Nisan 14,
Passover Day, and/or the day of Crucifixion.

Trouble Shooter, you
do agree with this last statement of mine, do you not? But if you do, you
must agree also that the Committee is making no claim re a lunar based
week or a lunar based Sabbath for the crucifixion, or isn’t that
true?

Now, I totally agree with you that the Committee’s claim re
Friday, April 27, 31 A.D. cannot be correct, that is, re it being Nisan 14
per the Karaite calendar, per the Scriptural calendar as given through
Moses, or even by the authors of the New Testament.

However, if you
study carefully the RC Final Report, Part V, you’ll soon realize that a
very large portion of it is committed to discussions re the calendar
reckoning in use the by the Jewish authorities of the first century and of
the time of Christ, while little or no reference is given to Karaites or
to a Karaite calendar, or isn’t that so?

If you think carefully
about this, suppose the calendar reckoning of the Rabbis and of the Jewish
authorities at the time were off from God’s true calendar, Which calendar
would Jesus and the authors of the Scriptures have been referencing - and
which calendar would God be using for fulfilling His own prophecies? The
Jewish authorities could have been, and most likely were, off by a day or
two plus, and even re the numbering of the month, that is, a whole month
off, could they not? Do we have any Bible evidence or proof for such
erroneous time reckoning?

As a matter of fact I find that we do!
Think about it! Didn’t Jesus and his disciples share their Passover meal
(Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12; and Luke 22:8,) the Last Supper, on a day
prior to the day called elsewhere ‘preparation of the passover’ (John
19:14) when the high priests and the servants of the high priests who led
Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment ate their Passover (John
18:28?!) Thus, there is indeed evidence of two different calendars being
used, one being in the nature of the Karaites’ calendar, that is, the one
which Jesus used, and the other being in the nature of the Jewish
hierarchy – a day or so later. Cf. also Jesus' own words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus (per Matthew 16:3
KJV)

O ye
hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not
discern the signs of the
times?

It seems clear to me
that the SDA GC Research Committee’s chief error is found in the
assumption that the Jewish calendar reckoning, that is being discussed at
length in Part V of the RC Final Report, is valid, and also that such a
calendar of men would or could ever have been typified by the Biblical
types and antitypes.

As a matter of fact - that you may or may not
have noticed already? - said Jewish calendar of the Rabbis, as referenced
by the 1938/1939 SDA GC Research Committee, was/is based, not upon the
first visible New Moon crescent, but upon the full moon, and upon a
retro-grade experience based assessment of when that full moon will be, as
based upon the typical look of the young moon 13 days prior to the
astronomical full moon...

So there you have it: The 1939 Research
Committee was in error re 31AD and therefore, as you say, also re the
correct application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings, but they were
nowhere giving evidence of using, or even considering, a lunar based week
or a lunar based Sabbath. So far as I’ve seen, no one has provided a valid
basis for your accusation brought against the SDA GC Research Committee:
“...but it was decided not to trouble the church with
it [a lunar driven week and Sabbath:]”

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That's a good summary
Pegg...
...the SDA church has known since at least
1938.

On November 7, 1938, the General Conference of
Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee to investigate
discrepancies in calendation.

The committee was comprised of
SDA luminaries...

The Chair was Elder L. E. Froom, Secretary
Dr. Lynn Harper Wood and committee members Dr. M. L. Andreasen,
Professor M. E. Kern, Professor W. Homer Teesdale, Professor Albert
W. Werline, Elder F. C. Gilbert and Miss Grace Amadon.

The
report was delivered July, 9, 1939...
...present were all the
General Conference members available, plus all the Union Presidents
in the U.S., Bible teachers, Ministers and many others...
...the
report started at 9:30 A.M. and the meeting ended about 10:00 P.M.

It was not done in a corner...
...and all the issues were
well understood...
...and the implications
realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble
the church with it.

Who would have thought it would
come down to...
...either the Sabbath...
...or the Sanctuary
doctrine.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
©]

Quite to the contrary, you
yourself have shown me that your basis for that accusation against them is
referencing, not "a lunar determined Sabbath" as you claim, but something
quite of a different nature, i.e. "the wandering lunar day line:"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear
Trouble Shooter,

Thanks ever so much for taking of your
valuable time to answering my questions. That is very helpful to
me!

Thanks also for all the good links you are providing in
specific response to my questions!

Yet, there are some things
in your responses that I do not seem to be able to make any sense
of. Perhaps I am losing my mind???

Please help me sort these
things out by letting me know a little about your point of
view!

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still
seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over
forty years later.

There is also a
letter by one of the committee members that I can't
locate immediately where it is stated that
they would not trouble the people with
it...
...meaning the difficulty of
observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will
find it and post it here soon.

[Color emphasis
added throughout / Tree of Life
(c)]

The
"letter..." that you are referencing above is the one you are here
quoting, isn't it?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

"We cannot afford to start
trouble of our own. To the world it will look that the present
proposed calendar is advanced for a specific purpose – not for
the purpose of adoption, for we will find that it is
impossible of universal application – not for the purpose of
supporting the 1844 date. I do not believe that we are under
that necessity. It must be possible to establish October 22
1844 without resorting to such
devices."

4angelspublications.com/pdf/Andreasens%20letter.pdf

But...
Isn't this letter that you are quoting focusing upon quite another
matter than "observing a lunar determined Sabbath!" The problem
dealt with in this letter is very much of a different nature, namely
"the Wandering Lunar Day Lines...!" (Cf. the title of that letter
that you are quoting!) That's quite another matter than "a lunar
determined Sabbath...", isn't it?!!!

How do you connect one
with the other?

Furthermore, within the post of mine that you
are responding to, I already quoted that very letter as explicitly
stating as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L.,
Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence
(4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed
scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”]
does not in any way affect the succession of
the days of the week, and hence does not affect the
sabbath…”

[Bracketed words and color emphasis
added / Tree of Life (c)]

How
do you connect "the Wandering Lunar Day Lines" with "observing a
lunar determined Sabbath???" Especially in the face of said explicit
statement to the contrary - within the very same letter!!!

Please explain that to me for I for one cannot make any
sense out of that!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
(c)

To
sum up thus far, the 1938/39 SDA Research Committee, was in error re the
31AD date and in using that date in support for the still widely
proclaimed application of Daniel’s 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy
beginning at 457BC and ending 1844AD, yet they stand scot-free from the
accusation being brought against them re hiding or knowing anything about
a lunar determined week or Sabbath - if ever such one did exist! So far as
the RC Committee is concerned, there is nothing supporting your
contentions as brought forth in your first post at the top of this thread
and as highlighted by me in red font quoting said
post of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally
believed Christ was crucified in 33 AD...
...but he changed his
position to the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why
did William Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis for his calculations to a
Karaite luni-solar calendar.

Question: How did changing to a
Karaite luni-solar calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On
a luni-solar calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath
day.

In the Karaite system, the months start with the first
appearance of the new moon...
...”In the first day ye
shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
therein.” Lev 23:7...
...the first day of the
month was the first weekly Sabbath...
...then six work days were
counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of the
month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly
Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar
were determined...
...by the sighting of the New Moon each
month...
...and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan...
...the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan...
...and eaten that night, the night of the full
moon...
...this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly
Sabbath.

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a
Sabbath.

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath
paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only group
who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of
the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.
The Karaite calendar is the only objective
reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite
luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not coincide...
...with the
continuous successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian
calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day
Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite
calendar...
...whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month...
...but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

Furthermore,
although October 22, 1844 AD is an important day in the history of the
Seventh-day Adventist history, it is an error to claim, as you do in your
above quoted post, that “...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that
establishes their October 22 1844 origin.”

The origin of the Seventh-day Adventist
movement is based upon the guidance and leadership of “him that
made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters”
(Revelation 14:7,) upon the prayer of Jesus found in John 17, and, more
particularly, upon such as are being characterized by John 17:17, that is,
along their Way out of the present State of Confusion, Babylon, Egypt,
"house of bondage," etc.. It should go without saying - but it doesn't! -
that the point of origin of that Advent, or any other similar,
movement has its beginning deeply within the realm and kingdom of
error, and that each and every step out of such errors diminishes the
State of confusion and the number of errors remaining, but it most
certainly does not remove them all at once, does it?!!!

Thus the
appropriateness of the use of the term 'the Present Truth...'

Most
everything else is peripheral - albeit ever so important if there is to
remain a reality to such a movement with Christ being indeed a
movement… Once the movement stops, the erosion, the
degradation, and the accumulation of errors once again takes the upper
hand until in the end there remains nothing but death and nothingness.

Now, isn't that a fact that is perfectly obvious and easy enough
for any child to comprehend and to
fathom?!!!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

PS:
It remains to be shown... Please cf. my post at:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

It
remains to be shown that neither is there any evidence brought forth, that
I’ve seen thus far within this thread, in support of William Miller and
his followers perceiving the Karaite calendar - which they were indeed
using - as being a calendar with lunar driven weeks or Sabbaths – that is,
other than touching the seven special Sabbaths within the three plus
annual feasts ordained forever per Leviticus 23.

But I'll leave
that for another loose end within this tread... Here [same as the last
quote above:]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Last edited by Tree of Life ©; 12-17-2009 at 08:04
PM..

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12-18-2009

#30

pythons

Forum Member

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Seattle

Posts: 416

Reputation: 92

I'm fairly sure that the issue ( or paradox )
is Ellen's "God" confirmation of 31 A.D. being the year of the
crucifixion, as well as;

A) Passover

B) Full Moon

C)
Day of preparation

etc, etc, etc.

As for the actual year of
31 A.D. being BOTH the pillar and foundation of the SDA faith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by White, GC 408

The scripture
which above all others had been both the foundation and the
central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto
two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be
cleansed.' Daniel
8:14.

And,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen GC 410

The 2300 days had been found to
begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and
building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C.
Taking this as the starting point, there was perfect harmony in the
application of all the events foretold in the explanation of that
period in Daniel 9:25-27. Sixty-nine weeks, the first 483 of the
2300 years, were to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One; and
Christ's baptism and anointing by the Holy Spirit, A.D. 27, exactly
fulfilled the specification. In the midst of the seventieth week,
Messiah was to be cut off. Three and a half years after His
baptism, Christ was crucified, in the spring of
A.D. 31. The seventy weeks, or 490 years, were to pertain
especially to the Jews. At the expiration of this period the nation
sealed its rejection of Christ by the persecution of His disciples,
and the apostles turned to the Gentiles, A.D. 34. The first 490
years of the 2300 having then ended, 1810 years would remain.
From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. "Then," said the
angel, "shall the sanctuary be cleansed." All
the preceding specifications of the prophecy had been unquestionably
fulfilled at the time
appointed

They are
stuck with the 31 A.D. date and as math has already confirmed it was
impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record
without a Lunar Sabbath.

pythons

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12-18-2009

#31

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

Six points of error upon which each may progress towards a State
of less confusion...

A
Mid-night Cry

from within Adamah Republic (c)

In the
middle of the cold and dark portion of the year, that is, mid winter,
and...
in the middle of the cold and dark portion of the moon, that is,
astronomical new moon, and...
for someone else, like Trouble Shooter,
near the mid Pacific Ocean Date line divider where the Seventh-day Sabbath
is presently at its coldest and darkest, that is, midnight...

The
Sixth Day 5930± 09 30 2030 [Friday December 18, 2009 after the beginning
of the reign of Caesar Tiberius]

Dear
Pythons,

Thank you for your post and for your interest as
focused upon beginnings of importance in each our lives! In your post you
are making a few subtle errors that are all too commonly made also by many
within and without the SDA denomination. Perhaps said errors could be
viewed alternatively as devious statements of yours, I don't know? I'll
take this opportunity to accept those errors of yours - and theirs - as a
challenge and as an opportunity to point out the obvious, such that one
and all among us will have yet another opportunity to accept such rays of
light as the Lord of Hosts may seem fit to send each our way...

"May the Lord, our Messiah, our Light upon the Way, be with each
One among us as we keep doing as the Bereans did... That is my prayer, O
Lord of Hosts!"

Quoting your post which I will then proceed
to further discuss below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I'm fairly sure that the issue (
or paradox ) is Ellen's "God" confirmation of 31 A.D. being the year
of the crucifixion, as well as;

A) Passover

B) Full
Moon

C) Day of preparation

etc, etc, etc.

As
for the actual year of 31 A.D. being BOTH the pillar and foundation
of the SDA faith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by White, GC 408

The
scripture which above all others had been both the foundation
and the central pillar of the advent faith was the
declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then
shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' Daniel
8:14.

And,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen GC 410

The 2300 days had been found
to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the
restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the
autumn of 457 B.C. Taking this as the starting point, there
was perfect harmony in the application of all the events
foretold in the explanation of that period in Daniel 9:25-27.
Sixty-nine weeks, the first 483 of the 2300 years, were to
reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One; and Christ's baptism
and anointing by the Holy Spirit, A.D. 27, exactly fulfilled
the specification. In the midst of the seventieth week,
Messiah was to be cut off. Three and a half years after His
baptism, Christ was crucified, in the spring
of A.D. 31. The seventy weeks, or 490 years, were
to pertain especially to the Jews. At the expiration of this
period the nation sealed its rejection of Christ by the
persecution of His disciples, and the apostles turned to the
Gentiles, A.D. 34. The first 490 years of the 2300 having then
ended, 1810 years would remain. From A.D. 34, 1810 years
extend to 1844. "Then," said the angel, "shall the
sanctuary be cleansed." All the preceding
specifications of the prophecy had been unquestionably
fulfilled at the time
appointed

They
are stuck with the 31 A.D. date and as math has already confirmed it
was impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel
record without a Lunar
Sabbath.

1.

First
an easy one. One that no doubt you'll easily accept?: Your first reference
"White, GC 408" should be corrected to "White, GC
409."

2.

Second, your words "Ellen's "God"
confirmation of..." could be read in a number of ways and I for one cannot
know your intention in using those words of yours, can I? If you or
someone else... - and I believe a number of zealous professors of the
Seventh-day Adventist profession may well be perceiving the writing of
Ellen White thusly... If you or someone else choose to perceive Ellen's
writings as words and letters written firsthand by God - or, using your
words, as a " "God" confirmation of..." something - even where such words
and letters are being read, misunderstood, and abused out of context, then
you and anyone so doing is making a grave and serious mistake. Or isn't
that obvious?

To me those words of yours may even appear devious,
not straight and clear, and calculated to raise any number of reactions...
all while being a distraction for a more focused approach.

Also,
to me, it may feel a bit of a tedious thing to even comment upon suchlike
use of words as yours. Yet, being as it is, that all too many even among
the most zealous of Seventh-day Adventist professors may be thus
characterized, I do indeed find it important to address even those words
of yours:

In fact, it should be sufficient to point out the
obvious truth that, we are all, each one among us, as tiny children and at
different points of comprehension and of learning. When first born, tiny
babies begin the path of learning by figuring out the meaning of each word
they see and hear spoken round about them by their parents and others.
Those words are by necessity taken out of context and the remainder of the
sentences being used are rarely if ever correctly understood by such
babies. Later upon their path of learning those babies begin understanding
words in sets of two, then three, four... etc.. Some people never go
beyond understanding relatively short sentences... while thusly being apt
to misunderstand the greater context.

It behooves each of us to
respect each others right to be like babies, "as little children..." (Matt
18:3,) and not to expect from others a comprehension beyond such as each
of them may be able... lest we be condemned with such as are being
described by Matthew 18:6... In this context I believe it is important
that we each do our best in using words as simply, as clearly, and with as
clear definitions as we may each be able to, and while yet allowing each
other the freedom to utter words to the best of each our limited ability
and even while not always doing so absolutely correctly - as judged
perhaps by each our own standards... and whether by a certain
authoritative dictionary or not...

In fact that's how I must
perceive your use of the above quoted words also. So please forgive me if,
per chance, you feel that my "wordy comments" (Troubleshooter's words) are
somehow causing you pain!

3.

Thirdly, I seem
unable to make any sense out of these particular words of yours. Perhaps
you'd care to be a tad more explicit?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

...as well as;

A)
Passover

B) Full Moon

C) Day of
preparation

etc, etc, etc.

...

Or, isn't it true that
"Passover," "Full Moon," "Day of preparation," "etc, etc, etc." occur in
each and every year, not just in "31 A.D.?" So what are you trying to say
by those words of yours?

4.

Fourthly, the
words you are quoting out of Ellen White's book the Great Controversy are
very pertinent and to the point of the discussion within this thread. Yet,
clearly and obviously they are taken out of context when considering some
apparently small, but most important particulars of the most simple and
basic English grammar:

You are saying that "As for the actual year
of 31 A.D. being BOTH the pillar and foundation
of the SDA faith..."

1) You seem to be
assuming that "the SDA faith" - as perhaps officially declared in the form
of a creed such as is found in the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe, or
perhaps as expressed by anyone associating himself or herself with the
term 'Seventh-day Adventist' - is one and the same thing as that which is
being referenced by Ellen's somewhat different words "the advent faith..."
(cf. near the beginning of page 409 in the Great Controversy.) That is a
false assumption of yours, though I do admit that it is one easily made by
any and all, and especially by such as are used to thinking along the
lines as given them by each their own hierarchy of men.

2) Your
word "being" is a word referencing present time. If you read carefully the
chapter beginning on page 409 of The Great Controversy, while focusing
upon the past tense consistently used by Ellen when describing the
thoughts and beliefs associated with those of "the advent faith" in days
past, you'll soon see that Ellen's focus is upon describing the history of
what had been, and more particularly in the context of what the particular
errors of such were... and still may be! Notice carefully that this is all
about a movement out and away from being within a State of error
and confusion re many a particular, some small, some grand, while moving
ever closer towards something better, something closer to being
correct, something of less confusion, something with more color and light
than what has formerly been... For instance (highlighting past tense in
red font: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen Gould White, The Great
Controversy

The scripture which above all others
had been both the foundation and the central
pillar of the advent faith... These had been
familiar words to all believers in the Lord's soon coming... All felt that upon the events therein foretold
depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes.
These prophetic days had been shown to
terminate in the autumn of 1844. In common with the rest of the
Christian world, Adventists then held that
the cleansing of the sanctuary was...

But the appointed time
had passed, and the Lord had
not appeared. The believers knew...

The 2300 days had
been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for
the restoration and building of Jerusalem, went into effect, in the
autumn of B.C. 547. Taking this as the starting-point, there was perfect harmony...

With this
reckoning, all was clear and harmonious,
except that it was not seen that any event
answering to the cleansing of the sanctuary had
taken place in 1844...

But God had led His people in
the great Advent Movement; His power and glory had attended
the work, and He would not permit it to end in darkness and
disappointment, to be reproached as a false and fanatical
excitement. He would not leave His word involved in doubt and
uncertainty. Though many abandoned their former reckoning of the
prophetic periods, and denied the correctness of the movement
based thereon, others were unwilling to renounce points of faith and
experience that were sustained by the Scriptures and by the witness
of the Spirit of God. They believed that they
had adopted sound principles of interpretaion in their study of the
prophecies, and that it was their duty to hold fast the truths
already gained, and to continue the same course of biblical
research. With earnest prayer they reviewed their position, and
studied the Scriptures to discover their mistake. As they could see no error in their reckoning of the
prophetic periods, they were led to examine more closely the
subject of the sanctuary.

In their investigation they
learned that there is no Scripture
evidence sustaining the popular view... the testimony of the sacred
writers being so clear and ample as to place the matter beyond all
question...

[Emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

Again notice the explicit use of
the past tense as highlighted in red
font!

Notice also, especially as emphasized by my
underlining certain words and by my use of bold font, within
the last two of the above quoted paragraphs, the great and emphatic
emphasis upon an ever ongoing movement under the exclusive
leadership of God!

5.

Fifthly, re your
last sentence within your post: "They are stuck with the 31 A.D. date and
as math has already confirmed it was impossible to have a Passover weekend
that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath."

Who are
you referencing by your first word "They...?" Yes, I agree with you that
anyone being yet unwilling to be willing to unlearn each their own false
assumptions, whether based upon self or upon the false assumptions of
others more learned, more highly esteemed, more popular etc... Yes,
indeed, "They are stuck..."

Yet, to the extent that any one among
us is willing to be willing to be part of the movement out of a State of
error and confusion while under the exclusive leadership of God, there is
no such thing as "being... stuck with the 31 A.D. date!"

It pays
well for each of us, me and you certainly not excluded, to ask ourselves
this question: "To what extent, and in re to what particulars, am I being
stuck and unwilling to move under God's leadership towards higher
ground?"

6.

Sixth, you are emphatically in
error, as I have attempted to show you before, in stating "math has
already confirmed it was impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs
with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath!"

To reiterate, if
you browse your way to adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io and then press the
link in the left hand column to "NT & OT Biblical Chronology" and then
go on from there, perhaps beginning with the link under item #5 to "the
18± astronomical events" and later, after reviewing that item #5, by
continuing to item #1, you should be able to perceive the light in what I
am attempting to show you re the certainty, not the impossibility, of "a
Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar
Sabbath!"

7.

A) If indeed you are serious
about finding the truth re the harmony between the firsthand observations
as recorded by contemporary writers and the events they were observing you
should have no trouble in eventually finding that which you are searching
for. That is, the truth as it really happened and in terms that make sense
from your very own point of view!

B) If, on the other hand, your
object is to question the serious pursuit of truth, and the serious
research, of others without being willing to dive into the particulars and
the basics as presented by such others, yes, then too you'll be finding
what you are looking for. That is, apparent paradoxes that may or may not
be paradoxes when viewed in a greater light. You are then likely to end up
with the scoffers as described in 2 Peter 3:3, and with the state of mind
had by Saul, the king of Israel during his latter years of reign.

The choice is yours, whomever you may be! And for as long as your
mind is still alert enough to realize the difference between making one
choice or another!

Peace, and happy oncoming Sabbath,
to the family and home of each honest and true tiny tot of
God,

Tree of Life (c)

PS. Pythons, a technical question,
what is the color you are specifying for highlighting some passages within
your posts?

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12-18-2009

#32

Troubleshooter

Super Member

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 4,580

Reputation: 579

I can see that you are rather disturbed by
this 'Tree of Life'...
...you know there is no way to reconcile the
paradox without giving up...
...Ellen's inerrancy or Miller/Snow date
or the Sabbath reckoning or a 31 AD crucifixion.

The easiest thing
to do is accept the facts and allow these issues to fall where they
will.

Btw did you have a look at the other thread?
Even when
Ellen's right, she's wrong.
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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12-18-2009

#33

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

Are you really addressing me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I can see that you are rather
disturbed by this 'Tree of Life'...
...you know there is no way
to reconcile the paradox without giving up...
...Ellen's
inerrancy or Miller/Snow date or the Sabbath reckoning or a 31 AD
crucifixion.

The easiest thing to do is accept the facts and
allow these issues to fall where they will.

Btw did you have
a look at the other thread?
Even when Ellen's right, she's
wrong.
forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

Written
within Adamah Republic (c)

In the middle of the cold and dark
portion of the year, that is, mid winter, and...
in the middle of the
cold and dark portion of the moon, that is, New Moon eve, and...
in the
middle of the cold and dark portion of the day, that is, approaching the
midnight of

The Seventh Day 5930± 10 01 2026 [Friday December 18,
2009 after the beginning of the reign of Caesar Tiberius]

[Sorry
about my erroneous entry "2030" in my last prior post. I stand corrected
by replacing it above with
2026.]

Shabbat Shalom Trouble
Shooter,

It is good to know that, provided that you are at all
a Sabbath keeper, you and I are going to be keeping the same Sabbaths for
the duration of this one and the next four Sabbaths, are we not? Or isn’t
tonight both the eve of Sabbath, the regular weekly non-lunar driven one,
and the eve of the New Moon by default? Thus, as you say, the 8th, 15th,
22nd, and 29th of this 10th lunar moon in the 2026th year after the
beginning recorded in Luke 1:26-33 are indeed being Sabbaths by both
reckonings, yours and mine, are they not?!

I am happy for you
because whenever you recognize your having made an error you are willing
to openly admit it. That is, you are willing to change your way of
thinking once you realize you were not straight upon a certain point. I
noticed that at the conclusion of our communications re the order of time
re the years 1883 and 1939…

I am also happy for you because it is
obvious that you are indeed moving ahead in the direction towards higher
truths. I noticed that upon seeing your reference to The Star of
Bethlehem, which brings my memories back to a waypoint in my past when a
certain Ernest L. Martin, author of the book The Star of Bethlehem – The
Star that Astonished the World (cf. askelm.com/books/book003.htm,) brought
me a long ways closer to the truths re the true chronology of the New
Testament and the First Century. Prior to learning a number of very
valuable things re the events and timing of that time period I was not
ready to accept or study another author, Ronald L. Conte Jr (cf.
biblicalchronology.com/index.htm,) who later ended up bringing me yet
another giant step in the right direction, and who remain to me yet
another most important waypoint upon my way of learning important details
pertaining to the nature and reality of the Kingdom of God in the here and
now.

To answer you question directly, Yes, I did read that link of
yours re Ellen White quite some time ago, which you would have known
already had you cared enough to really carefully study and consider the
values that I’ve been sharing with you in my prior posts, or wouldn’t
you?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

…

1.

…

-
I find this a most important observation of yours! One requiring
further study into the reality upon which the Holy Scriptures are
indeed based! So how are we doing on that study of ours? Are we
doing as the Bereans did? Or, are we, whether Seventh-day Adventists
or otherwise, more like the Thessalonians, and less noble than the
Bereans? Are we continuing along the Way towards a correct
understanding of Truth and Real Life history as required by the Holy
Scriptures and by Ellen White's Desire of Ages as
quoted elsewhere by you? Or, are we burying our heads in the
sand unwilling to perceive the scary and ugly truth of our own
ignorance and errors that is staring us in our face?

- It
certainly does follow, from your observation, that the 2,300 year
prophecy as commonly (but cf. those that I am being blessed to share
with you all!) presented - as based upon the key years 457BC, 27AD,
31AD, 34AD, and 1844AD - does not hold up to closer scrutiny, given
- or provided - that Abib 15 in the year of crucifixion did fall on
a regular non-lunar Seventh Day of the week. The only way for 31AD
to be the year of crucifixion, given the testimony of the Gospel
writers, is - as you say - for the weekly Sabbaths to be lunar
based. Or so it seems... And yes, Ellen White is
supporting said 457-27-31-34-1844 application of the 2,300 evenings
and mornings prophecy... {DA 233.1-3.} Or so it seems, and
yet she also has this to say re the 1843 chart upon which said 2,300
evenings and mornings prophecy is the central theme:

[Color
emphasis added for the purposes of this post / Tree of Life
©]

Was I perhaps not specific
enough in giving reference to that post of yours? If so, please forgive
me? I too do make errors. Just like you do. I make errors all too often,
yet I do my best to seek and correct my errors ASAP, and I really do
appreciate anyone who is willing and able to show me my errors and my
missed points and my areas of blindness. In fact that is a chief reason
for me to enter deeply into the details of these claims of yours, some of
which are valid, some of which are clearly based on nothing but errors and
misunderstandings of yours and others.

In fact, I do find great joy
in digging for such pearls and treasures of God buried as they usually are
deep within and underneath the piles of thrash of the teachings of men.
So, no, I am not “disturbed by this…” “The Adventist Sabbath Paradox” of
yours. Quite to the contrary! I do find it very encouraging to see others,
you, on route towards something better than that which they had previously
learnt and which was in need of revision and cleansing! Also, as no doubt
you too, I find value and meaning in being able to share with others some
of the treasures and valuable lessons that I’ve been able to gather along
my way of learning little by little and precept upon precept as per Isaiah
28:9-13.

But really Trouble Shooter, Who are you really
addressing by these words of your post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

"...no way to reconcile the
paradox without giving up...
...Ellen's inerrancy or Miller/Snow
date or the Sabbath reckoning or a 31 AD
crucifixion?"

That is, where do I
claim any such thing as "Ellen's inerrancy?" Or where am I making any
claim in favor of "a 31 AD crucifixion?" Why are you asking me to give up
one out of four things, two of which I am not now claiming, and which two
I have not before been claiming? That doesn't make any sense to me at all!

Could it be that, indeed, you are addressing noone else primarily
than your own mistaken beliefs as held sometime within your own past
history? I have no way of knowing. Only you do. Could it be that, as is so
commonly done in this world, you are failing to recognize your own self,
whether past or present, while attributing your own false ideas and
concepts upon another, whomever he or she or it may be? At any rate,
whomever that figment of your imagination is, you seem to associate it
with the word 'Adventist,' are you not? Well, just wandering... Perhaps
you'll find it worth your while considering the
thought?

Additionally, I've done my best to show you several of the
errors upon which the erroneous 31 AD crucifixion reckoning was built -
while also proving to you that in all of that work there is nothing
suggesting, or even requiring, "a lunar driven Sabbath" such as you are
mistakenly claiming!

But naturally you are free to hold on to any
belief that you wish, be it in error or not. I must respect your rights of
thinking and of doing with such as is all yours as you wish. Hopefully
that'll generate within you a similar respect for such thoughts of mine as
you are at present obviously either unwilling or unable to comprehend or
else to study into in sufficient depth.

Shabbat Shalom
my Brother,

Tree of Life ©

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12-29-2009

#34

TMaekler

Forum Member

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 1

Reputation: 10

Where to find the Information?

Hello,

since I am from Germany and we
have very little information about most things in our language about
7th-day-Adventism, I would like to know more about the sources you all
pull this discussion from:

a) Where can I find the information
about the day-counting in the Karaite-Calendar and they starting a Month
always with a NewMoon and then every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th a Sabbath?

b)
Where do I find the information that the Karaite-Calendar is the one which
was used in the time of Abraham and in the time of Jesus? Can I find this
in the Bible?

c)
Where can I find the information that the Millerites based their Oct-22nd
1844 on the calculation of that calendar?

d) Where do I find the
teaching that Adventism is based upon Oct-22nd 1844 and not generally the
year 1844? Is there any written text which proofs that Adventism is
dependant on Oct-22nd? As far as I know, the only thing that was predicted
for the end of the 2300 Days was that this marks the beginning of the "Day
of Judgement" - and it has little or no theological value for us to have
the exact day.

e) Why does AD31 as the Year of the Crucifiction of
Jesus Christ only fit when one uses the Karaite-Calendar? I've read some
sources on this topic and none of them ever mentionend a
Karaite-Calendar... .

f) As far as I know is the best evidence for
a 7-day-weekly-cycle not the creation itself (but God certainly could have
done it in a different timeset than six days and a resting day, so that
might have happened on purpose), but the falling of the Manna - which fell
6 days and on the 6th day double portions and on the 7th day nothing. I
havn't found anything there which would indicate that there that would
indicate to a month based on a lunar cycle with one or two days "between"
the weeks... .

Thanks for your help.
Best Regards...

TMaekler

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12-29-2009

#35

JDP

Forum Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canada

Posts: 427

Reputation: 144

This board is to close down today so there
are few people posting here. the owners of this board have started a new
forum here.....

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php

if you
will post your questions there, you are more than likely to get replies.
Hopefully this board will remain accessable for a reasonable length of
time to allow some transferance of discussion topics.

__________________

God will not forsake you: Even Moses was a basket case
at one time........Philippians 1:6 (paraphrased)

Religion is for
those who are afraid of Hell - Jesus Christ is for those who have already
been thru it!

THICKNESS CANNOT BE
MEASURED!

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12-30-2009

#36

Troubleshooter

Super Member

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 4,580

Reputation: 579

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMaekler

Hello,

since I am from
Germany and we have very little information about most things in our
language about 7th-day-Adventism, I would like to know more about
the sources you all pull this discussion from:

a) Where can I
find the information about the day-counting in the Karaite-Calendar
and they starting a Month always with a NewMoon and then every 8th,
15th, 22nd, and 29th a Sabbath?

b)
Where do I find the information that the Karaite-Calendar is the one
which was used in the time of Abraham and in the time of Jesus? Can
I find this in the Bible?

c)
Where can I find the information that the Millerites based their
Oct-22nd 1844 on the calculation of that calendar?

d) Where
do I find the teaching that Adventism is based upon Oct-22nd 1844
and not generally the year 1844? Is there any written text which
proofs that Adventism is dependant on Oct-22nd? As far as I know,
the only thing that was predicted for the end of the 2300 Days was
that this marks the beginning of the "Day of Judgement" - and it has
little or no theological value for us to have the exact
day.

e) Why does AD31 as the Year of the Crucifiction of
Jesus Christ only fit when one uses the Karaite-Calendar? I've read
some sources on this topic and none of them ever mentionend a
Karaite-Calendar... .

f) As far as I know is the best
evidence for a 7-day-weekly-cycle not the creation itself (but God
certainly could have done it in a different timeset than six days
and a resting day, so that might have happened on purpose), but the
falling of the Manna - which fell 6 days and on the 6th day double
portions and on the 7th day nothing. I havn't found anything there
which would indicate that there that would indicate to a month based
on a lunar cycle with one or two days "between" the weeks...
.

Thanks for your help.
Best
Regards...

Hi...if you catch this
before it goes down...
...I have taken a copy of your
post/questions...
...I plan to distill the best of research on this
thread and represent it for comment on the new forum...
...I will
attempt to answer your excellent questions at that time.

I look
forward to interacting with you on the new forum.

Regards
Troubleshooter

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- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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12-30-2009

#37

Tree of Life ©

Forum Member

Join Date: Nov 2009

Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

Reputation: 13

An SDA's attempt to answer your questions re the origins of
Seventh-day Adventism...

Dear
T Maekler,

Being myself a living and breathing Seventh-day
Adventist created of flesh and blood by the Creator of the Universe,
perhaps I may have the honor of answering, to some extent, some of your
questions...

You will find my answers in red
font within your quoted post below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMaekler

Hello,

since I am from
Germany and we have very little information about most things in our
language about 7th-day-Adventism, I would like to know more about
the sources you all pull this discussion from:

- The basis and the beginning of true Seventh-day
Adventism is best formulated by the creed claimed by the pioneers of
Seventh-day Adventism, which creed is the entire Bible as the Word
of God to each of us, and more particularly as formulated by and
through John, Chapter 17, and most especially by John 17:17,
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

- Other
creeds, or such creed like publications as are currently being
published by the formal and organized Seventh-day Adventist Church,
for instance the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe, suffer from
various defects and are not as close to the above referenced creed
as I and many other Seventh-day Adventists with me would like. In
fact, such other creeds are in and of themselves contrary to the
foundations of Seventh-day Adventism.

- It follows that such
claims as are being presented within this particular thread and
forum to the effect that Seventh-day Adventism is based upon a
Karaite calendar, upon the October 22, 1844 A.D. date and the Daniel
8:14 prophecy re the 2,300 evenings and mornings as proclaimed by
the Millerites, or any other specific, are also in effect various
species of non-Seventh-day Adventist creeds, and ought to be
understood in that light.

- To illustrate the importance
of the Bible as the center and foundation for true Seventh-day
Adventism I'd like to point you towards a most valuable pillar of
Seventh-day Adventist beingness: The Sabbath School which is the
hour of bible study when Seventh-day Adventists meet in their
various meeting places the world over to study various topics on
each and every Seventh-day Sabbath morning. Here are some pertinent
links for you:

- German Seventh-day Adventist Bible Study
resource:
advent-verlag.de/cms/cms/front_content.php?idcat=73

-
Multi-language Seventh-day Adventist Bible Study resources:
ssnet.org/qrtrly/languages.html

- A major English speaking
Seventh-day Adventist Bible Study resource: ssnet.org

- My
own site: adamoh.org

a) Where can I find
the information about the day-counting in the Karaite-Calendar and
they starting a Month always with a NewMoon and then every 8th,
15th, 22nd, and 29th a Sabbath?

-
Here's a Karaite resource that I find quite valuable:

-
karaite-korner.org/

- You'll find, on that page, links "about
the day-counting in the Karaite-Calendar..." and to a number of
articles re Biblical times and days of particular importance, which
are to be observed as such... But please, don't expect to find
anything there in support of a lunar driven Sabbath being observed
"every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th..." I am not aware of any such like
Karaite Sabbath observance - if ever it existed...??????? Should you
ever come across such information of some substance, please do let
me know about it! Thus far and insofar as I can see, such info seem
to exist merely in the imagination of a few scattered individuals,
some of whom seem to be well represented within this thread, but who
seem unable to come up with any solid references in support of their
claims...

b) Where do I find the information
that the Karaite-Calendar is the one which was used in the time of
Abraham and in the time of Jesus? Can I find this in the Bible?

- If I am not misinformed, the
Karaites themselves did not exist as such until a few hundred years
this side of New Testament times. Naturally, the same goes for "the
Karaite-Calendar."

- However, the name Karaite is by its
built-in meaning a reference to such as do make the written Torah
their main reference, i.e. while recognizing that the oral Torah is
little more than mere gossip as handed down as the traditions of
various Rabbi "authorities" and which have been written down only
many hundreds of years later...

- It follows that the
calendar and time specifics being defined in the Old Testament, and
more particularly within the Torah, the five books of Moses, do
carry within themselves "the information [re] the
Karaite-Calendar... used in the time of Abraham and in the time of
Jesus..." that you are asking for!

- Better yet, having
focused intently upon these very issues of Bible time and Bible
calendar myself, full time over at least the last seven years or so,
I am in a position of helping you along in your pursuit
considerably, should you happen to be willing to accept my offer of
invitation to the results of my studies as published on my web site,
i.e. at adamoh.org. You'll find there, in the left hand column of my
home page a link entitled "NT & OT Biblical Chronology" under
which you'll find a host of more or less exact chronology dates of
history built on nothing less than the Scripture calendar as given
us in the Bible, that is, to the best of my ever growing
understanding of that calendar...

- Additionally, in the main
window of the same home page of ours, that is, my son's and my home
page, you'll find a number of links highlighted in blue font which are the creations of my son and
which I find excellent resources re various specifics of Biblical
time reckoning.

- Be blessed accordingly! Praise the Lord,
our Creator - not us, please!

c) Where can I
find the information that the Millerites based their Oct-22nd 1844
on the calculation of that calendar?

- The Grace Amadon Collection is a good reference to
studies re the Millerite pursuit and their Bible studies leading up
to their expectations re the 2nd coming of Christ on "Oct-22nd
1844." You'll find the Grace Amadon Collection published in parts at
these sites:

-
andrews.edu/library/car/AmadonGraceCollection.pdf

- Albeit
somewhat more tendentious - that is, in the direction of being
proponents of a lunar driven week and Sabbath observance - you'll
find much of the same materials also at this link:
4angelspublications.com/

- If you care to dig into some
of my posts as entered into this forum you'll find more specific
references re the strengths and weaknesses of said Grace Amadon
Collection and re the results of the 1938/1939 Seventh-day Adventist
General Conference Research Committee re how the Millerites came up
with the October 22, 1844 date. However, be aware that due to their
very limited understanding of the Scriptural calendar, as well as to
their limited insight into the Millerite thinking, there are errors
in the conclusions and reports of said committee that must not be
overlooked. Errors that should be recognized for what they are - and
then corrected, not hidden or stored away and, over the decades,
being ever so quickly forgotten about...!

- For instance, I
find it being obviously true that the Millerites did find a Karaite
calendar and a Karaite time reckoning most helpful in their pursuit
of determining the sought after date re the prophetic fulfillment of
Daniel 8:14.

However, I find no evidence whatsoever to the
effect that the Karaite calendar used by the Millerites was a
calendar with lunar driven weeks or Sabbaths. Quite to the
contrary!

Notice also that the GC Research Committee was
clearly in error re their claims that the Millerites were basing
their October 22, 1844 date upon a calendar such as fixed the day of
At-one-ment upon the one New Moon of Month number One, i.e.
Abib/Nisan - along with each and all of the seven special Sabbaths
of the three annual Feasts as ordained forever by the God of
Freedom, our Creator.

The Millerite references themselves,
as pointed to, but misunderstood, by Grace Amadon and by said
Committee, makes it amply clear that quite the opposite is true.
That is, that the dates and Feast Days of each particular month were
determined by the new moon crescent of each particular month
separately.

More particularly, the Day of At-One-Meant and
October 22, 1844, was arrived at, by the Millerites themselves, by
means of the New Moon crescent reckoned as being observable from the
Jerusalem horizon on the evening of October 13, 1844, and not - and
contrary to the belief and understanding of said Committee - upon
the New Moon crescent of Nisan, Month number One of the year, as
observed on April 18, 1844. Please cf. the following:

1) Re
the actual Millerite reckoning of the 1844 Day of Atonement: Please
read for yourself the words of the quoted reference to "–Bliss, The
Advent Shield, January, 1845, p. 278." as found on the 3rd and last
page of this link:
4angelspublications.com/pdf/HowTheMilleritesChoseOct.pdf

-
Those words of Bliss, being a representative of the Millerites
himself, reference the 24 hour day beginning at sunset October
22, 1844, and not the day before, as per the
following...

2) Re the obviously erroneous 172 day
reckoning of the 1938 Committee report arriving at the date October
22, 1844 [beginning at sunset October 21] based upon a
May 2 = Nisan 14, 1844 full moon reckoning, upon a corresponding
"MOSAIC only" observation of the moon crescent as first visible in
the evening of April 18, 1844, and upon an erroneous belief that the
Bible teaches that the Passover sacrifice given in the eve between
Abib 14 and Abib 15 is so timed as to always fall in the evening
immediately following upon the astronomical full moon. Cf. these
links, and these words as quoted out of one of them: "Bible...
commanded that the 14th of Nisan should follow the day of full moon
in Jerusalem:"

#1. full report on p. "37," last paragraph,
through p. "42" of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF

#2.
p."33," l.9 of the same link,

#3. top line on p. 5 of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/BriefReviewNewViewsRegardingMilleriteChronology.pd
f, and

#4. lines 6 and 7 from the bottom of
4angelspublications.com/pdf/Jewish%20Feast%20Cycle%20(1843%20and%201844).PDF

-
I hope you'll find the above helpful in answering your question at
least to some extent?

d) Where do I find the
teaching that Adventism is based upon Oct-22nd 1844 and not
generally the year 1844? Is there any written text which proofs that
Adventism is dependant on Oct-22nd? As far as I know, the only thing
that was predicted for the end of the 2300 Days was that this marks
the beginning of the "Day of Judgement" - and it has little or no
theological value for us to have the exact day.

- I believe that such teachings as you are asking
about exist mostly in the minds of some scoffers of Seventh-day
Adventism, who may be at times themselves former Adventists who, due
to their discoveries of mistaken beliefs and understandings of their
own and which they may, or may not, have inherited from others, are
throwing out the baby with the bath water while not themselves being
motivated to dig deep enough into the substance of things in order
to replace their prior misconceptions and errors of belief with such
proof and evidence as stands upon a firmer foundation.

-
Perhaps you'll find value yourself in studying with me somewhat more
deeply, these things re the 2,300 evenings and mornings? If you do,
please accept this link, to a web page of mine, as a point of
beginning:

adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm

[Do be sure to remove any and all spaces out of all
my URLs or they won't work!]

e) Why does AD31
as the Year of the Crucifiction of Jesus Christ only fit when one
uses the Karaite-Calendar? I've read some sources on this topic and
none of them ever mentionend a Karaite-Calendar...
.

- Actually it doesn't fit! -
Contrary to current and persistent Adventist teaching and preaching,
I am sad to say!

- This is a mistake clearly made not only
by the Millerites, but also, albeit differently, by said 1938/1939
GC Research Committee. I believe this is part and parcel of the
error pointed to by Ellen White in her words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen G. White, Early
Writings, p. 74.1

I have seen
that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the
Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures
were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a
mistake in some of the figures, so
that none could see it, until His hand was removed.
{EW 74.1}

- If you ever
venture into a thorough study of the timing of the crucifixion,
you'll find that AD31 is not a year when the crucifixion could
possibly have taken place... and neither are any of the years
between 25AD-36AD!

- Nonetheless, you may be certain that
there are exact answers available and ready for the avid Bible
student of a true and honest Berean mindset. Please accept this link
of mine to a good place for you to begin your straight and narrow
path study of these truths:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm

f)
As far as I know is the best evidence for a 7-day-weekly-cycle not
the creation itself (but God certainly could have done it in a
different time set than six days and a resting day, so that might
have happened on purpose), but the falling of the Manna - which fell
6 days and on the 6th day double portions and on the 7th day
nothing. I haven’t found anything there which would indicate that
there that would indicate to a month based on a lunar cycle with one
or two days "between" the weeks... .

- Amen! After having pursued to the best of my
ability, anything of substance in support of the within proponents'
claims for a lunar driven Sabbath, and after finding no such
support, I find no reason not to agree with you
entirely.

Thanks for your help.
Best
Regards...

Shalom,

Tree
of Life (c)

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07-19-2009

#38

Icyspark

Forum Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Pennsylvania

Posts: 1,362

Reputation: 90

Systematic Seven Day Cycle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Greg - The weekly Sabbath was not
determined by the moon, the sun, or the earth. The weekly Sabbath is
identified by the Creator - every 7th day. Jesus, as the Creator,
knew the count of Sabbath and He observed the 7th day Sabbath all of
His time on earth. He had not changed the Sabbath at His death and
therefore it was confirmed in the New Covenant and observed by His
disciples even after His death. Luke 23:56

…but maintain a
weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

Greg - The SDAs maintain the weekly Sabbath because
you can count the weekly Sabbath since the time of Jesus. The Jews
know what day Sabbath is on, the Muslims know what day the 7th day
is, and the Catholics and Protestants know what day the 1st day of
the week is. Everybody knows except the
formers.

Hi Greg
Goodchild,

Great post! I find it odd that formers even attempt to
argue the point that the Sabbath is determined by anything other than a
simple, systematic seven day cycle. Thank you for taking the time to
expose yet another false accusation.

God bless!

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07-20-2009

#39

Troubleshooter

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 4,580

Reputation: 579

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icyspark

Hi Greg Goodchild,

Great
post! I find it odd that formers even attempt to argue the point
that the Sabbath is determined by anything other than a simple,
systematic seven day cycle. Thank you for taking the time to expose
yet another false accusation.

Oh Icy,
Icy, Icy...
...you too have missed the point of the thread.

It
was was William Miller that used a luni/solar calendar to establish
1844...
...and Samuel Snow who used it to set the terminus of the 2300
days on 22 October 1844.

The same calendar determines weekly
sabbaths by a lunar reckoning...
...but SDA's have based their sabbath
on a successive Gregorian calendar reckoning.

This has only
academic interest for formers...
...the paradox is yours
Icy...
...it's the origin of your religion that is based on one
system...
...and your sabbath that is based on another.

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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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06-02-2009

#40

Mr. Happy

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Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 2,813

Reputation: 378

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

In the Karaite system, the months
start with the first appearance of the new moon…
…”In the first
day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the first day of the month was the first
weekly Sabbath…
…then six work days were counted until the next
Sabbath on the eighth day of the month...
...and the 15th, the
22nd and the 29th were also weekly Sabbath’s.

The
weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were
determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each
month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that
night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of
15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite
calendar every Passover was a
Sabbath.

Do you happen to have the
Karaite web site that back this up?

Thanks
Mr. Happy

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