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> Seventh Day
Adventism

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

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12-09-2009

#1

Kevin Morgan

Forum Member

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 10,361

Reputation: 178

Why ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPatti

You must have run out ... of
anything that resembles rational
argument.

Yes, rational argument
ceased with that post. There is no need to add anything to it.

You
stretch the story beyond realistic expectations to think they could have
gotten and eaten the fruit without approaching the tree.

Quote:

???

When you protest against
logic, it is a hole of your own making.

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Kevin Morgan

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12-09-2009

#2

DrPatti

Super Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 11,283

Reputation: 931

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

Yes, rational argument ceased with
that post. There is no need to add anything to
it.

So why did you?

Quote:

You stretch the story beyond realistic expectations to
think they could have gotten and eaten the fruit without approaching
the tree.

I never said that.
Please
reread the posts.
Must you stoop to misquotation in order to try and
count coup on me?

Quote:

When you protest against logic, it is a hole of your own
making.

That is just it, "pastor."
The
Gospel is against logic!

Pastor, teach yourself!
Here are
some words you need to spend some time pondering!

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to
those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power
of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of
the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will
frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where
is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom
of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its
wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what
was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs
and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ
crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to
Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews
and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of
God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's
wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called.
Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential;
not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of
the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to
shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the
despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things
that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is
because of him that you are in Christ
Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from
God—that is, our righteousness, holiness
and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the
Lord."
And yet you mock those who do just
that.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My
grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that
Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal
your joy!

DrPatti

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12-09-2009

#3

Kevin Morgan

Forum Member

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 10,361

Reputation: 178

Beyond human logic

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPatti

So why did you?

I never
said that.
Please reread the posts.
Must you stoop to
misquotation in order to try and count coup on
me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPatti

Not necessarily.
God's
command was not to eat of the fruit of the
tree.
Technically, the eating could have happened
elsewhere.
So this was yet another one of her additions to
Scripture.

OK, by a
technicality, they could have figured out some ingenious way to pick
the fruit without coming near the tree and eaten it somewhere
else.

But does that make
sense?

Quote:

That is just it, "pastor."
The Gospel is
against logic!

Pastor, teach yourself!
Here are some words
you need to spend some time pondering!

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is
foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being
saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I
will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the
intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man?
Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has
not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in
the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him,
God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to
save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks
look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ
crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to
Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both
Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the
wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is
wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than
man's strength.

26 Brothers, think of what you were
when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human
standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble
birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to
shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame
the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the
despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the
things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him.
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ
Jesus, who has become for us wisdom
from God—that is, our righteousness,
holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is
written: "Let him who boasts boast in the
Lord."
And yet you mock those who do just
that.

The Gospel isn't illogical. It is is
beyond our human logic.

Upholding the Gospel is a good thing. Yet,
when you play it against every other revelation of Scripture and claim
that it requires us to quit thinking, you dig a hole of your own
making.

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Kevin Morgan

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12-09-2009

#4

DrPatti

Super Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 11,283

Reputation: 931

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

The Gospel isn't illogical. It is is
beyond our human logic.

It is (and I
quote) "foolishness to those who are
perishing."
Foolishness would mean it is illogical.

Quote:

Upholding the Gospel is a good thing. Yet, when you play
it against every other revelation of Scripture

A false accusation.
What I have
"playing" it against is the "revelation" of Ellen White.
SHE IS NOT
SCRIPTURE, although I know you cannot wrap your mind around this
factoid.

Quote:

and claim that it requires us to quit thinking,

You lie yet again.
It is the revelation
of the Gospel by the Holy Spirit that opens our minds and enables us to
start thinking.

It is telling that you must stoop to false
accusations to make your case.

Quote:

you dig a hole of your own making.

A poor argument it is, pastor, that has to
be built on half- and non-truths.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My
grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that
Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal
your joy!

DrPatti

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12-09-2009

#5

Kevin Morgan

Forum Member

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Posts: 10,361

Reputation: 178

The Wisdom of God

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPatti

It is (and I quote)
"foolishness to those who are
perishing."
Foolishness would mean it is
illogical.

No, "foolishness"
means that it makes no sense to them because they have different
motivations.

Ask yourself this: To whom is it "foolishness"? To
all?

It only makes no sense to the ones perishing.

1Cor 1:17 (KJV) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to
preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ
should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
18 For the
preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us
which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will
destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the
understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the
scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the
world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of
preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign,
and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power
of God, and the wisdom of God.

Quote:

A false accusation.
What I have "playing" it against
is the "revelation" of Ellen White.
SHE IS NOT SCRIPTURE,
although I know you cannot wrap your mind around this
factoid.

You lie yet again.
It is the revelation of the
Gospel by the Holy Spirit that opens our minds and enables us to
start thinking.

It is telling that you must stoop to
false accusations to make your case.

A poor argument it is,
pastor, that has to be built on half- and non-truths.

I have spoken the truth, though you may
wish to dismiss it.

Quote:

Upholding the Gospel is a good thing. Yet, when you play
it against every other revelation of Scripture and claim that it
requires us to quit thinking, you dig a hole of your own making.

You dismiss God's truthful statement that
the Sabbath IS His "holy day" by saying "Jesus is enough." You dismiss the
obedience of faith and the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law IN
us by faith.

This is wrong, just plain wrong.

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Last edited by Kevin Morgan; 12-09-2009 at 04:34
AM..

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12-09-2009

#6

DrPatti

Super Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 11,283

Reputation: 931

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

No, "foolishness" means that it
makes no sense to them because they have different motivations.

Ask yourself this: To whom is it "foolishness"? To
all?

It only makes no sense to the ones
perishing.

Exactly!

Quote:

1Cor 1:17 (KJV) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but
to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of
Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it
is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring
to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the
wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this
world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not
God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them
that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks
seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the
Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But
unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power
of God, and the wisdom of
God.

Exactly!
Christ IS
the "Wisdom of God"!
Any which way you try to turn it, pastor, it is
(still) all about HIM!!

Quote:

I have spoken the truth,

No.
You have not spoken the
Gospel.
You have not spoken Jesus.

Quote:

though you may wish to dismiss it.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My
grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that
Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal
your joy!

DrPatti

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Profile

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12-09-2009

#7

Kevin Morgan

Forum Member

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 10,361

Reputation: 178

Wisdom AND power

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPatti

Exactly!

Exactly!
Christ
IS the "Wisdom of God"!
Any which way you try to turn it, pastor,
it is (still) all about
HIM!!

The truth is the
truth--even if it is hard to bear. Of even the simplest Gospel
presentation, "I am a sinner" is always a part. Jesus is the answer--the
only answer--to the problem that this statement represents. But, if you do
not recognize your sin, you ignore the first part of the
Gospel.

You may want to make the Gospel illogical, but it is not.
It is the wisdom and power of God. What power is there in the Gospel you
proclaim? Does it merely secure you immunity for prosecution for your evil
speaking and doing and drag you "kicking and screaming" into heaven?

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Kevin Morgan

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Kevin Morgan to Your Contacts

12-09-2009

#8

DrPatti

Super Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 11,283

Reputation: 931

The power of Christ

You continue to promote your own agenda over
the testimony of the Scriptures (which is evidently why you are so loath
to quote them).

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is
the power of God for the salvation of everyone who
believes: first for the Jew, then for the
Gentile.
Your "other gospel" is not a Gospel of a victorious
Christ Who has conquered sin and death on our behalf and has seated us in
heavenly places with Him. Your "other gospel" is the Galatian gospel of,
"But what's in it for me?" Your telltale attitude of nonchalance, even
antithesis, toward the all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ shouts that you
continue to look for "more than just Jesus." Your continued promotion of
your own "good works" and claims to keep holy a law that "even our
forefathers could not bear" shows your enamorment with what is happening
in you. You abrogate the law, lowering its holy standards so that you can
boast about observing it, while, at the same time, you openly break the
very law you hold above all others, failing to keep even a moment of any
sabbath holy, let alone your blatant ignoring of its commands not to work
on the sabbath (while you condemn all others for the very same
thing).

And so you must pervert the Gospel and modify every
statement of Scripture to suit your "It's all about me" theology--your
wishful thinking that you are a commandment-keeper and it is this very
(imagined) observance that presents you faultless before God.

How
are you any different from the Jews? They failed utterly at doing the very
things they upheld as making them different--chosen; especially blessed of
God. They still claim they are specially blessed even as they still fail
at keeping the very indicator of their chosenness--the torah. How are you
different? Romans 2 describes your attitude exactly. You brag about the
law and about your relationship to God all the while continuing to break
the very thing that you claim makes you special to Him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

The truth is the
truth--

And Jesus is STILL THE
TRUTH!

Quote:

even if it is hard to bear.

How
can you call that "hard to bear"??

You are so uncomfortable to my
affirmations of the all-sufficiency of Christ that you have to try and
bury them under tons of rhetoric, misuses of Scripture, and heaps of
doubt. Doubt is what you are mongering, pastor. I say Jesus is enough, and
you come up with some whiny non-response that attempts to nullify this
great surpassing Truth. I simply do not understand how you can
conscionably call yourself Christ's minister when you try and dilute or
negate any statement of the all-sufficiency of His saving act for
us.

Quote:

Of even the simplest Gospel presentation, "I am a sinner"
is always a part.

It is not just a part!
It is the foundation! It is the "new birth"!
Christ came to save only
sinners. If one is not a sinner, one does not need a
Savior!

Which is exactly what is wrong with your "gospel." By
promoting yourself as a "law-keeper" you fail to see how truly sinful you
are. You believe you are pleasing God with your "law-keeping" and so you
feel little need of redemption. And thus Jesus' work of salvation for you
is not satisfying, and you seek "more than just Jesus."

Quote:

The Jesus is the answer--the only answer--to the problem
that this statement represents. But,

Once
again, the "big but."
If only you could stop at Jesus is the answer and
put a large period there, if not an exclamation point.

When one
has the Answer, there is no need for a "but" to follow. The "but" shows
that the Answer is not good enough for you.

Quote:

if you do not recognize your sin, you ignore the first
part of the Gospel.

Who does not recognize
their sin?
I will gladly stand up and be the first to confess my
sinfulness, my complete depravity before God! Remember my thread on "SA," in which I was trashed by the SDAs and other
lawmongers for confessing my sinfulness?

Ironically, it is those
who claim they "keep" the law who do not recognize that all of their
righteousnesses, all of their "law-keeping," all of their very best works
are menstrual rags before God. Nasty, corrupt refuse.

Quote:

You may want to make the Gospel illogical, but it is not.

Actually it is your argument here that is
illogical. You do not proclaim your sinnerhood but your "goodness." Your
"law-keeping." (And, as usual, it is totally devoid of Scripture.)

Quote:

It is the wisdom and power of God. What power is there in
the Gospel you proclaim?

I quoted you that
already. But in case you missed it:

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is
the power of God for the salvation of everyone who
believes: first for the Jew, then for the
Gentile.

Quote:

Does it merely

You see how you
belittle forgiveness and being credited with the Rightoeusness of God?
That is like saying, "Did you merely win the lottery of $500 billion?" It
shows how you underesteem and devalue God's Gift of Salvation in Jesus
Christ.

Quote:

secure you immunity for prosecution for your evil
speaking and doing

If you understood the
depths of your sinfulness, you would not address forgiveness as "mere."
Remember the parable of the ungrateful servant? He had no concept of how
much he had been forgiven.

Quote:

and drag you "kicking and screaming" into heaven?

That is fine with me!
Why is it a
problem to leave our eternal destiny in God's hands?
Is He not
capable?
Is He not trustworthy?
Why would you want to take control
of something so vital instead of leaving it in the hands of the Omnipotent
and Omniscient One?
Are you unwilling to be dragged into eternal
paradise--the very Presence of God Himself--kicking and screaming if
necessary?
(That, again, is like winning the lottery and insisting that
no one could force you to take it! It is completely illogical.)

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My
grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that
Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal
your joy!

DrPatti

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12-07-2009

#9

Kevin Morgan

Forum Member

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 10,361

Reputation: 178

The Judge won't allow you to disallow that
evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

Let me try again, you seem a little
slow on this topic, A. Ellen claims at one point that the only place
Adam and Eve could sin was at the tree, this is theologically
accurate.

B. In a later writing she claims that the sabbath
was present before the fall, this is innacurate, and incorrect, she
tries to morph the Mosaic law into the garden command of do not
eat.

Willy, you judge the theological
accuracy of these matters by your own opinion and whoever happens to agree
with you. Yet we have demonstrated from Scripture time and again that the
Sabbath is tied immediately to the week of creation, that Exodus 20:11
indicates that the "seventh day" is the "sabbath" day. That is the same
thing the Aramaic (Syriac) of Hebrews 4:4 tells us as well:

"According to what He said about the Sabbath, 'God rested on
the day seventh from His works all of them.'" (Dave Bauscher's
interlinear translation; the Syriac translation was the oldest
translation of the Greek Scriptures, and some say that the Greek is the
translation).
You simply choose to disallow this evidence, for
whatever your reason, and set the commencement of the Sabbath at some
future date.

What is your view these days? Do you think it was
inaugurated on Sinai? Or was it inaugurated back at the miracle of the
manna? (Or perhaps you have creatively developed a new "big bang" to
describe its origin.)

What is your evidence that the Sabbath WASN'T
sanctified for man at the Creation?

Is it because there is no
specific mention of a commandment to observe it before Exodus 20 (actually
before Exodus 16)? If that is your reasoning, then the snafu that you run
into is that there is no command against killing, stealing, or committing
adultery, and yet God holds people accountable for these very things. The
patriarchs knew better--even without a commandment restraining their
behavior.

It would seem that you and other former SDAs think that
what makes the Sabbath holy is God's commandment to "keep it holy," but
that really makes no sense. It has to be holy before the issuance of the
command; otherwise you can't "keep" it holy. You'd be "making" it holy.
No, it isn't the commandment to "remember" it that makes it holy; and it
isn't anyone's observance of it that makes it holy--whether Jew or
Gentile. It was God's command in Gen. 2 that sanctified it after His rest
that made it holy. When we get to Exodus 16 and 20, it's holiness is
simply taken for granted.

Thus, it is holy whether you want to
figure an ingenious way around it or not. It is holy whether I keep it
carefully or not.

Is it holy because I say it is holy? No. Is it
holy because God commanded Jews or non-Jews to keep from profaning it? No.
It is holy because God said it is holy. End of discussion.

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Kevin Morgan

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12-07-2009

#10

DrPatti

Super Member

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 11,283

Reputation: 931

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

The Judge won't allow you to
disallow that evidence.

We may have
struck on the problem here. YOU are not "the Judge."

Quote:

Willy, you judge the theological accuracy of these
matters by your own opinion and whoever happens to agree with you.

Oh, my!
You got 3 fingers pointing back
at yourself on that one, pastor.

Quote:

Yet we have demonstrated from Scripture time and again
that the Sabbath is tied immediately to the week of creation,

That is just it.
You have not
"demonstrated" it from Scripture.
You have added to the
Scripture.

It is also tied to manna and to the Exodus.

Quote:

that Exodus 20:11 indicates that the "seventh day" is the
"sabbath" day.

That is common knowledge.
This was initiated in Exodus 16.

Ex 16:21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as he
needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day,
they gathered twice as much—two omers [b] for each person—and the
leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to
them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is
to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what
you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left
and keep it until morning.' "

24 So they saved it until morning,
as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat
it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to
the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26
Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh
day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."

Quote:

That is the same thing the Aramaic (Syriac) of Hebrews
4:4 tells us as well:

"According to what He said about the Sabbath, 'God
rested on the day seventh from His works all of them.'" (Dave
Bauscher's interlinear translation; the Syriac translation was the
oldest translation of the Greek Scriptures, and some say that the
Greek is the translation).

It
is editorial. The word "sabbath" does not occur in Hebrews 4.

Quote:

You simply choose to disallow this evidence, for whatever
your reason, and set the commencement of the Sabbath at some future
date.

Only because we do not presume to
add to the Scriptures what is not there.

Quote:

What is your view these days? Do you think it was
inaugurated on Sinai?

Nope.

Quote:

Or was it inaugurated back at the miracle of the manna?

Well, let me see. Since this is the first
reference to the sabbath and the first sabbath command for mankind and the
first documentation of humans resting on the seventh day of the week, what
should we "assume"? (I know! I know! We shoud assume that the sabbath had
always been in existence since creation, right?)

Quote:

(Or perhaps you have creatively developed a new "big
bang" to describe its origin.)
What is your evidence that the
Sabbath WASN'T sanctified for man at the Creation?

Your theology derpends upon proving a
negative.
What is your evidence that people DIDN'T worship in the first
day of the week, the day after the seventh, from the beginning?

Quote:

Is it because there is no specific mention of a
commandment to observe it before Exodus 20 (actually before Exodus
16)? If that is your reasoning, then the snafu that you run into is
that there is no command against killing, stealing, or committing
adultery, and yet God holds people accountable for these very
things. The patriarchs knew better--even without a commandment
restraining their behavior.

Still arguing
from silence. Proving something by the omission of something else. Very
shaky academics, pastor. But it is, after all, all you have to go
on.

Quote:

It would seem that you and other former SDAs think that
what makes the Sabbath holy is God's commandment to "keep it holy,"
but that really makes no sense.

That has
to be the weakest argument I have ever heard, and one that undermines
God's commands. As if God's commands cannot take effect the moment they
are spoken, and have to have a historical basis. How you undermine God's
authority! All for the sake of your pathetic attempts to wrest from the
Scriptures that which is not there. Despite your most zealous efforts, you
simply cannot place a sabbath command for mankind nor a weeklhy sabbath
before Exodus 16.

Quote:

It has to be holy before the issuance of the command;

So God's declaring the seventh day holy
unto Him in Exodus 16 was not sufficient? (I am beyond astounded at how
you attempt to set up ground rules for what God can and cannot
do.)

Quote:

otherwise you can't "keep" it holy. You'd be "making" it
holy.

A ridiculous argument, pastor, based
upon your logic and nothing else. I think you realize that.

Quote:

No, it isn't the commandment to "remember" it that makes
it holy; and it isn't anyone's observance of it that makes it
holy--whether Jew or Gentile. It was God's command in Gen. 2 that
sanctified it after His rest that made it holy.

Please show us this "command" in Genesis
2.

Quote:

When we get to Exodus 16 and 20, it's holiness is simply
taken for granted.

That is completely
denied by the story itself. If the COI were already observing the sabbath,
they would not have had to have been told not to go out and gather manna
on the sabbath. Clearly this was a new concept for them, as many broke the
sabbath initially, and earned Moses' and God's anger.

Quote:

Thus, it is holy whether you want to figure an ingenious
way around it or not. It is holy whether I keep it carefully or not.

Is it holy because I say it is holy? No.
Is it holy because God commanded Jews or non-Jews to keep from profaning
it? No. It is holy because God said it is holy. End of
discussion.[/QUOTE]

Are not all the sabbaths "holy"?

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My
grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that
Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal
your joy!

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12-09-2009

#11

willy

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As usual you unwittingly follow your prophet
who was a theological nit wit, claiming a need as she does for rest and
communion in the garden is a direct accusation against God.

She
implies that Adam was not perfect and that the connection between Adam and
God was weak and in need of man made effort.

Because you think this
theological mis-mash is from God I'm sure you don't see it as an
accusation against God, in that His refusal to create man in such a way
that he did not need to rest, or would mindlessly wander into sin by
accident in the absence of a weekly reminder.

Such concepts are in
violation of the simplest of principles, if Ellen had read her own ideas
on the nature of sin she would remember that Satan fell while in the
direct presence of the creator, she apparently was so hell bent on pushing
sabbath that she must have blocked out the idea that one day in seven does
not quite match the eternal glory of God upon the covering cherub 24/7

You most likely don't even see the works based theology as it
permeates virtually all of your doctrines and religious stories.

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Christ as fully human does not allow for
his humanity controlling his divinity.

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12-16-2009

#12

Kevin Morgan

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A call to return to my question

Quote:

Originally Posted by willy

As usual you unwittingly follow your
prophet who was a theological nit wit, claiming a need as she does
for rest and communion in the garden is a direct accusation against
God.

She implies that Adam was not perfect and that the
connection between Adam and God was weak and in need of man made
effort.

Because you think this theological mis-mash is from
God I'm sure you don't see it as an accusation against God, in that
His refusal to create man in such a way that he did not need to
rest, or would mindlessly wander into sin by accident in the absence
of a weekly reminder.

Such concepts are in violation of the
simplest of principles, if Ellen had read her own ideas on the
nature of sin she would remember that Satan fell while in the direct
presence of the creator, she apparently was so hell bent on pushing
sabbath that she must have blocked out the idea that one day in
seven does not quite match the eternal glory of God upon the
covering cherub 24/7

You most likely don't even see the
works based theology as it permeates virtually all of your doctrines
and religious stories.

Rather than
avoiding my question and wandering about the subject, could you not simply
reply to what I have asked?

More importantly: Faith that works by
love is not salvation by works.

__________________

Exposing the positiveness of
Adventism to a wider audience through the help of my friends at
CARM.
“And
I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly
I love you, the less I be loved.” --Paul, 2 Corinthians
12:15.

Last edited by Kevin Morgan; 12-16-2009 at 04:45
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12-16-2009

#13

Mr. Happy

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Mule to the Barn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Morgan

Rather than avoiding my question and
wandering about the subject, could you not simply reply to what I
have asked?

More importantly: Faith that works by love is not
salvation by
works.

Kevin,
Even more
importantly:
The "Works of the Spirit" through "Christians of
Faith" [already Saved] is "Loving One
Another".

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11-24-2009

#14

Troubleshooter

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Anathema...

Your first assumption is that Seventh-day
Adventism is 'the truth'.
You then collect evidence to support that
assumption.

My first assumption is that the Lord who became Jesus
and Christ is 'the truth'...
...and that all scripture is about
Him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus
said, "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them
(ie the scriptures) you have eternal life; and it is they that bear
witness to me: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." John
5:40

You have accepted an anachronistic cult as the foundation of
your 'truth'...
...in contradiction of the plain words of
scripture...
"...no other foundation can any one lay than that which is
laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:11

Come oh Adventist
devotee and preach Jesus to me if you really know Him.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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11-27-2009

#15

Tree of Life ©

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Location: Adamah Republic ©

Posts: 66

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I
am sorry for having given you apparent cause for misreading
me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Your first assumption is that
Seventh-day Adventism is 'the truth'.
You then collect evidence
to support that assumption.

My first assumption is that the
Lord who became Jesus and Christ is 'the truth'...
...and that
all scripture is about Him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me." John 14:6

Jesus said, "You search the scriptures,
because you think that in them (ie the scriptures) you have eternal
life; and it is they that bear witness to me: yet you refuse to come
to me that you may have life." John 5:40

You have accepted an
anachronistic cult as the foundation of your 'truth'...
...in
contradiction of the plain words of scripture...
"...no other
foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus
Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:11

Come oh Adventist devotee and
preach Jesus to me if you really know
Him.

Dear
TroubleShooter,

First, I agree that that which you are
apparently reading into my post is “anathema.” In fact, I couldn’t agree
with you more! And I for one certainly do find it most unfortunate that
such anathema attitudes are all to common among such as are calling them
selves by names such as Christian, Seventh-day Adventists, or most any
other name...

I am sorry for not being able to make myself clear to
the point of making it impossible for you to misunderstand my words as I
am intending them.

Apparently you are reading my words to the
effect that I stand up for some officially stated SDA Church position and
as someone officially representing such a church and such a position. I
don’t! I represent no one but myself and my own position. I don’t know of
any Seventh-day Adventist who would choose me to represent them. Quite the
contrary... And that’s the way I like it.

Nevertheless, having
grown up in a Seventh-day Adventist family I have certainly found and
retained many a treasure of truth from the Holy Scriptures. Among them
certainly those which you are pointing out by your quoted passages and
more. On the other hand, there are a number of things being accepted as an
official “statement of belief” by the hierarchy associated with the State
registered Seventh-day Adventist Church that I find contrary to a straight
“thus says the Lord” and contrary to Scriptural teaching and which I do my
best to make clear that I do not stand for.

So please, do not read
anything between the lines of my own words and my own writing. Notice
these words that I inserted into my very first sentence in order to
clarify what I mean by the term ‘Seventh-day Adventist church:’ “– composed as it is of each one of its members and
that which they each have thus far come to believe -.”
Notice my emphasis upon the word ‘each!’ In addition, as I perceive it,
the living church, whether the Seventh-day Adventist church or any other
church, is comprised of little or nothing more than all that which result
from its individual members. It certainly is not, so far as I am
concerned, any stated position of any elected “leadership,” whether in the
form of a group of administrators or in the form of something voted into
existence by any number of its members. Yet, I am well aware that very
many, both within and without the people calling themselves Seventh-day
Adventists, would have it quite the opposite to that which I just
said.

Yet, as you can see from the post of mine which you are
responding to, I am indeed perceiving among the Seventh-day Adventist
pioneers, a very healthy pursuit of ever more, and more accurate, truth. I
can and do identify with that pursuit. I do not identify with any desire
or attempt to defend any “truth,” “doctrine,” or “creed” that is tending
to hide or shield any inherent error from further light. If you ever read
The Autobiography of Joseph Bates you’ll see a shining example of what I
am talking about.

The reason I am pursuing the subject matter of
this particular thread and the subject of the ‘Lunar Sabbath’ argument is
that I am interested in learning for myself any treasures of truth that I
have not heretofore discovered. If I were to find that the
Lunar Sabbath is the correct Scriptural Sabbath I am certainly prepared to
change accordingly. Unfortunately for some perhaps, thus far it seems that
the more I am pursuing the purported evidence for a so called 'Lunar
Sabbath,' as referenced within this and other threads within this forum, I
am seeing more and more evidence to the contrary.

In my
learning process and in my pursuit of treasures of truths, I make the
assumption that most - or at least some - of the other members of forums
such as this one are in a similar pursuit of truth as I am. In consequence
thereof I am happy to share of such other gems of truth as I have found
valuable in my prior studies. My hope is that we shall all continually
grow into ever higher and more accurate specific truths – all of which are
one with the God of Truth, our Creator and Savior.

Shabbat
Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

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06-01-2009

#16

solascriptura!

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Location: Sacramento, California

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed
Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to
the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William
Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis
for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite
calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon
each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that
night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of
15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite
calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates
for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day
Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion
date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that
establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite
calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD
crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly
cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly
cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin
calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s
are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath
determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

So,
for all we know...Sabbatarians have been actually keeping another day Holy
for the last who knows how long?

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06-02-2009

#17

Troubleshooter

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Be afraid, be very afraid...

Quote:

Originally Posted by solascriptura!

So, for all we know...Sabbatarians
have been actually keeping another day Holy for the last who knows
how long?

Certainly, to be consistent
with their origins SDA's Sabbitarians at least should observe a weekly
Sabbath determined by the lunar cycle...
...or admit that their
foundation is flawed.

It certainly makes their Rome/Sabbath/Sunday
debate look rather sick.

I am reminded of Paul's
comments...

Galatians 4:10-11 "Ye observe days, and months, and
times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour
in vain."

1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no one can lay any foundation
other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

The Gospel
should be our only foundation...
...SDAism is a house built on sand.
(Matt 7:26)

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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12-05-2009

#18

Tree of Life ©

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Please share your findings re the bases for the Lunar Sabbath
observance

Quote:

Originally Posted by solascriptura!

So, for all we know...Sabbatarians
have been actually keeping another day Holy for the last who knows
how long?

Dear Sola
Scriptura!,

Considering your Forum name it would seem to me
that you are likely to value the importance of always giving preference to
the original Holy Scriptures over and above any tradition, and over and
above anything else that you may be hearing. Or is that not
so?

That having been said, I'd like to ask you what you have found
to be the strongest evidence in favor of Lunar Sabbath observance?

What do you perceive as the strongest evidence in favor of the
Seventh-day Sabbath originally having been a day other than that which is
currently being observed as the Seventh-day Sabbath by Seventh-day
Adventists?

I've been studying the proposed foundations of this
"Lunar Sabbath observance" as referenced within this forum for some time
now and so far I have found nothing of substance to support it... On the
contrary, it seems to me that we are dealing here with plain
misunderstandings and assumptions without solid support, but I am still
studying, and, as usual, if nothing else, I find along the way other
treasures for me to keep and value...

Peace over each our
families and homes as we keep closely to the principle of Sola
Scriptura,

Tree of Life (c)

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12-05-2009

#19

Troubleshooter

Super Member

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Location: Australia

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Information is like a 'bead' on a line that
can adjust its position from left to right as knowledge is
gained.

When a person becomes too certain of their
information...
...their 'bead' drop of the end of the line to left or
right and becomes fixed there.

When this happens all further
knowledge gained only serves to strengthen that position...
...that is,
knowledge no longer serves to modify...
...only to
solidify.

That's how I see your purpose here ToL...
...any
knowledge you gain only serves to solidify you entrenched
positions.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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06-01-2009

#20

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

This creates for Seventh-day
Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are
the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is
the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22
1844 origin.

The Karaite calendar is the only objective
reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite
luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the
continuous successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian
calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day
Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite
calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

Interesting
observation. I also find it interesting that even the Karaites themselves
deny that the Day of Atonement in 1844 was observed by Karaites in October
rather than September.

__________________
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author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-02-2009

#21

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Interesting observation. I also find
it interesting that even the Karaites themselves deny that the Day
of Atonement in 1844 was observed by Karaites in October rather than
September.

What I find ironic is
that...
...the dating of the death of Christ should be the death of
1844.

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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-02-2009

#22

solascriptura!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

What I find ironic is
that...
...the dating of the death of Christ should be the death
of 1844.

Theres
a goldmine of truth in that little statement you just made.

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06-02-2009

#23

Greg Goodchild

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Join Date: Feb 2009

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed
Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to
the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William
Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis
for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar
calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar
calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In
the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of
the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy
convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the
first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six
work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of
the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also
weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite
calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon
each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly
cycle.

The lunar year began with the month
Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first
sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the
Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that
night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of
15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite
calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates
for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day
Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion
date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that
establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite
calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD
crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly
cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly
cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin
calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s
are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath
determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

The
Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin
calculated using the Karaite calendar…

Greg - What they used the
Karite calendar for was to establish the date of the Day of Atonement. In
1844 they did not even believe in the weekly Sabbath.

…whose
weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…

Greg - The weekly
Sabbath was not determined by the moon, the sun, or the earth. The weekly
Sabbath is identified by the Creator - every 7th day. Jesus, as the
Creator, knew the count of Sabbath and He observed the 7th day Sabbath all
of His time on earth. He had not changed the Sabbath at His death and
therefore it was confirmed in the New Covenant and observed by His
disciples even after His death. Luke 23:56

…but maintain a weekly
Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian
calendar.

Greg - The SDAs maintain the weekly Sabbath because you
can count the weekly Sabbath since the time of Jesus. The Jews know what
day Sabbath is on, the Muslims know what day the 7th day is, and the
Catholics and Protestants know what day the 1st day of the week is.
Everybody knows except the formers.

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06-02-2009

#24

Troubleshooter

Super Member

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The Paradox...

Quote:

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated
using the Karaite calendar…

Quote:

Greg - What they used the Karite calendar for was
to establish the date of the Day of Atonement. In 1844 they
did not even believe in the weekly Sabbath.

The
Millerites used the Karaite calendar to establish...
...the Day of
Atonement in 1943/1844...
...the year of the crucifixion...
...and
other stuff I may present later...
...but the SDA's later chose not to
apply the lunar Sabbath because it was inconvenient.

Quote:

…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by
month…

Quote:

Greg - The weekly Sabbath was not determined by
the moon, the sun, or the earth. The weekly Sabbath is
identified by the Creator - every 7th day. Jesus, as the
Creator, knew the count of Sabbath and He observed the 7th day
Sabbath all of His time on earth. He had not changed the
Sabbath at His death and therefore it was confirmed in the New
Covenant and observed by His disciples even after His death.
Luke 23:56

It was
determined by the moon in the Karaite calendar system.

Quote:

…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the
successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

Quote:

Greg - The SDAs maintain the weekly Sabbath
because you can count the weekly Sabbath since the time of
Jesus. The Jews know what day Sabbath is on, the Muslims
know what day the 7th day is, and the Catholics and
Protestants know what day the 1st day of the week is.
Everybody knows except the formers.

You can
definitely count the weekly Sabbath's since the time of
Christ...
...but you will never establish a 31 AD date for the
crucifixion that way.

Go count them Greg...
...you will find
that Passover in 31 AD did not fall on a Sabbath/Saturday...
...when
scripture (and Ellen) clearly describe that it did...
...the only way
you can reconcile this is to use the Karaite calendar.

Your church
recognises the problem Greg...
...the General Conference even conducted
a Research Committee to investigate it...
...I can't help it if you are
ignorant of your own church history.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-02-2009

#25

Greg Goodchild

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Looks like I will continue to stay ignorant
of perceived problems. Dates for Passover, dates for Day of Atonement are
helped by the Kariaite calendar. But I don't use the new moons to
calcualte the weekly Sabbath. Nowhere in Scripture is Sabbath dictated by
the new moon. I will continue to keep Sabbath the Biblical way, every 7th
day - Saturday.

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06-02-2009

#26

Victor

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you don't keep the sabbath holy as required
by the law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Looks like I will continue to stay
ignorant of perceived problems. Dates for Passover, dates for Day of
Atonement are helped by the Kariaite calendar. But I don't use the
new moons to calcualte the weekly Sabbath. Nowhere in Scripture is
Sabbath dictated by the new moon. I will continue to keep Sabbath
the Biblical way, every 7th day -
Saturday.

How are you doing with
those burnt offerings?

__________________
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain
that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh
but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He
who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly?
- Lord Byron

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06-03-2009

#27

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Looks like I will continue to stay
ignorant of perceived problems. Dates for Passover, dates for Day of
Atonement are helped by the Kariaite calendar. But I don't use the
new moons to calcualte the weekly Sabbath. Nowhere in Scripture is
Sabbath dictated by the new moon. I will continue to keep Sabbath
the Biblical way, every 7th day -
Saturday.

That's the paradox
exactly...

1844 depends on Jesus being crucified in 31
AD...
...the 31 AD date is only possible using a Lunar Sabbath
calculation...
...and yet you observe a perpetual 7th day
Sabbath.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-03-2009

#28

Greg Goodchild

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That's the paradox exactly...

1844
depends on Jesus being crucified in 31 AD...
Greg - 1844 is a reference
to an annual Sabbath not a weekly Sabbath. So you are mixing apples and
oranges here.

...the 31 AD date is only possible using a Lunar
Sabbath calculation...

Greg - Just simple calculations from 457 BC
and the 70 week prophecy. The interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does
not require a lunar Sabbath calculation. So if you want to discuss
Passover as a lunar driven Sabbath please feel free to do so.

...and yet you observe a perpetual 7th day Sabbath.

Greg -
I do indeed observe a weekly 7th day Sabbath, each Saturday, just as Jesus
did and just as Paul did, and just as the disciples did, and just as all
loyal keepers of Jesus command do.

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06-03-2009

#29

Troubleshooter

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Paradox, Conradiction and Criteria

That's the paradox exactly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS

1844 depends on Jesus being
crucified in 31 AD...

Quote:

Greg - 1844 is a reference to an annual Sabbath not
a weekly Sabbath. So you are mixing apples and oranges here.

These
are not my 'apples' and 'oranges'...
...the 'apples' and 'oranges'
belong to the Karaites...
...and maybe the Karaites mixed their
'apples' and 'oranges'...
...but William Miller used the Karaites mixed
'apples and 'oranges'...
...to establish 31 AD in his prophetic scheme
that Seventh-day Adventists adopted.

So by embracing William
Millers scheme, SDA's embraced the Karaites mixed 'apples' and
'oranges'.

I am not talking here about what you and I
believe...
...I am telling you that the Karaites did calculate the
weekly Sabbath...
...by reference to the Lunar cycles.

William
Miller then used the Karaite calculation to...
...make 31 AD a viable
date for inclusion in his prophetic scheme...
...and to arrive at the
22 Oct 1844 Day of Atonement...
...that marked the termination of the
2300 day/year prophecy.

I am not presenting a personal idea...this
is history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS

...the 31 AD date is only possible
using a Lunar Sabbath calculation...

Quote:

Greg - Just simple calculations from 457 BC and the
70 week prophecy. The interpretation of the 70 week prophecy
does not require a lunar Sabbath calculation. So if you want
to discuss Passover as a lunar driven Sabbath please feel free
to do so.

No...all
that gives you is the year.

If you start calculating the
'seventy-sevens' from 457 BC...
...and you insist on a strict
fulfillment...
...you must include 31 AD in the timeline to get to
1844...
...but there are other criteria to meet to make 31 AD a viable
year for the crucifixion.

The criteria that must be satisfied to
establish a viable date for the crucifixion.

It must be in the
spring in the month following the Barley harvest.
In the month Nisan
(Abib). Deut. 16:1
On the 14th day of that month. Lev 23:5
On the
sixth day of the week. John 19:31
On a 'Preparation Day' (day before
the Sabbath) Matt 27:62
On a night of a full moon.
Coinciding with a
Passover. Lev 23:5
The beginning of the feast of unleavened bread. Ex
12:18
Coinciding with a Sabbath. Matt 28:1-2, John 19:31-32
The Wave
Sheaf Offering and Resurrection day must coincide. Lev. 23:9, Mark
16:9

This criteria can not be satisfied in 31 AD if you run the
current Julian/Gregorian weeks back...
...it ends up happening on a
Tuesday/Wednesday...
...a Friday/Sabbath can only be satisfied in 30 AD
and 33 AD...
...but William Miller was able to satisfy the criteria by
using the Karaite luni/solar calendar...
...because it satisfies all
the criteria every year...
...so 31 AD could fit the prophecy and get
him through to 1844.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TS

...and yet you observe a perpetual
7th day Sabbath.

Quote:

Greg - I do indeed observe a weekly 7th day
Sabbath, each Saturday, just as Jesus did and just as Paul
did, and just as the disciples did, and just as all loyal
keepers of Jesus command do.

If
you Greg and Jesus, Paul and the disciples observe(d) a successive weekly
seventh-day Sabbath that is fine...
...but this can not be reconciled
with William Millers use of a different form of Sabbath to establish the
foundation prophetic doctrine of your church.

Let me state the
Paradox another way...
...SDA's adopted a successive weekly
Sabbath...
...that contradicts the form of Sabbath that was used to
establish their prophetic origin.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-03-2009

#30

Greg Goodchild

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In my mind you are trying to make the Annual
Sabbaths stand with the weekly Sabbaths. If that is not your thinking then
remove the weekly Sabbaths from your discussion and stick to the Annual
Sabbaths, Passover and Day of Atonement.

William Miller was not a
Sabbatarian. He did believe in the annual Sabbaths for prophetic
guidelines. He arrived at 31 AD from the 70 week prophecy.

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06-03-2009

#31

Troubleshooter

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It's not an either/or

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

In my mind you are trying to make
the Annual Sabbaths stand with the weekly Sabbaths. If that is not
your thinking then remove the weekly Sabbaths from your discussion
and stick to the Annual Sabbaths, Passover and Day of
Atonement.

If you take away the
weekly Sabbath's from the Karaite calendar...
...you have no basis for
a 31 AD crucifixion.

Quote:

William Miller was not a Sabbatarian.

So there was no paradox for William
Miller.

Quote:

He did believe in the annual Sabbaths for prophetic
guidelines. He arrived at 31 AD from the 70 week prophecy.

As I explained the 31 AD needs to satisfy
more Biblical criterion...
...than linking it to a probable start for
the 70 weeks prophecy.

You can't establish the crucifixion in the
year 31 AD without the Karaite lunar sabbath.

The Karaite lunar
calendar solved more than one problem for William Miller...
...but
created a problem for SDA's once they became Sabbitarians.

See
my discussion...
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-05-2009

#32

Greg Goodchild

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Well I guess that we will have to depend upon
your prophetic outline that fits all of the criteria. Can you lay it out
from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah? What is the
correct timeline?

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06-05-2009

#33

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Well I guess that we will have to
depend upon your prophetic outline that fits all of the criteria.
Can you lay it out from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
to Messiah? What is the correct
timeline?

Unless you can meet all the
biblical criteria for the crucifixion of Christ in 31 AD your SDA
prophetic timeline has no value.

I know this is a question no SDA
can answer.

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07-03-2009

#34

Greg Goodchild

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If you believe that no SDA can answer your
thought, when will you present the timeline so we can learn from
you?

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12-09-2009

#35

Tree of Life ©

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A correct timeline per your specific request...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

If you believe that no SDA can
answer your thought, when will you present the
timeline so we can learn from you?
[Color emphasis added /
Tree of Life (c)]

Dear
Greg,

I am a Seventh-day Adventist. In this post to you I am
not only living proof of the fallacy of Troubleshooter's claim...:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Well I guess that we will have
to depend upon your prophetic outline that fits all of the
criteria. Can you lay it out from the decree to restore and
rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah? What is the
correct timeline?

Unless
you can meet all the biblical criteria for the crucifixion of Christ
in 31 AD your SDA prophetic timeline has no value.

I know this is a question no SDA can
answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life
(c)]

I am also presenting
what I believe is the present truth re "the correct timeline" you are
calling for in your above post.

As you will see if you carefully
study that which the Lord of Hosts has seen fit to show me - and to share
with others like you through me - you should be able to recognize that
this timeline meets all the Scriptural criteria. You will also recognize
that it is correcting for the error of the 31AD crucifixion pointed out by
Trouble Shooter and others, and while in so doing shedding much further
light upon Daniel's prophecies, not excluding the 2,300 evenings and
mornings.

You will also notice, upon studying my posts re this
matter, that although Trouble Shooter is in error re his belief that the
1939 SDA Research Committee was at all considering any lunar based
weekdays or Sabbaths outside of the three annual feasts, he is
nevertheless correct in that said Committee made an error in finding
support for a 31AD crucifixion and the still widely published - now
obsoleted - truth re the 2,300 evenings and mornings as applied upon the
years 457BC-27AD-31AD-1844AD.

Notice carefully however, that in no
way does this new added light deter from the many exceeding blessings that
has been coming to this planet thanks to that which before now was indeed
the present truth!

1.
So here is the present truth
timeline re Daniel's 490 day/year prophecy for you to study and
consider:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/TreeOfLifeTimeSeventyWeekProphecyYearForDayCombine
d_files/image002.jpg

(Please use this URL - Prior to my first 100
posts I am not given the ability to post images or links directly! And
please be sure to always remove any and all spaces within my posted URLs -
or they won't work!)

2.
For more details re the present
truth re Daniel's prophecies, please use this link:

adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHis
Time.htm

(You'll find the above image under item 1e. within this
last link.)

3.
For more details re the 31AD error as
presented by the 1938/1939 SDA GC Research Committee please consider my
post
at:
forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706

May
God bless you abundantly in your further studies of these
matters,

Tree of Life (c)

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12-09-2009

#36

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

I am a Seventh-day Adventist. In
this post to you I am not only living proof of the fallacy of
Troubleshooter's claim...:

I have not
seen where you have refuted the main contension of this thread.

SDA
origins were established using a Karaite Lunar calendar whose Sabbath was
determined by a cycle that renewed each New Moon...
...and SDA's
observe a Sabbath determined by a Julian/Gregorian calendar.

The
irony is that the 31AD date for Jesus crucifixion...
...necessary for
their 2300 day/year prophetic scheme...
...can not be established
without using a Lunar calendar.

None of your wordy comments so far
have come close to resolving this.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
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12-09-2009

#37

commen tater

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Would it be possible to use a piece of
astronomy software such as "Starry Night" to solve some of this? You ought
to be able to punch in your exact location on the planet and the date and
see what the night sky (including phases of the moon) looked like on a
given night and at a given location.

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12-09-2009

#38

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Would it be possible to use a piece
of astronomy software such as "Starry Night" to solve some of this?
You ought to be able to punch in your exact location on the planet
and the date and see what the night sky (including phases of the
moon) looked like on a given night and at a given
location.

I was looking to establish
dates for Jesus crucifixion when I came across the Star of Bethlehem site
http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/

He has
carefully examined the historical data and used astronomy calculations and
software (like Starry night) in his quest to determine the coincidence of
astronimical events and Jesus birth and crucifixion.

April 4 of 33
AD fits the criteria demanded by the astronomical data and the historical
witness...
...it even coincides a Lunar Sabbath with a Julian/Gregorian
Saturday...
...but 33 AD does not fit the SDA 2300 day/year prophetic
schema...
...on which their organization finds its origin, identity and
purpose.

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#39

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I was looking to establish dates for
Jesus crucifixion when I came across the Star of Bethlehem site http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/

He has
carefully examined the historical data and used astronomy
calculations and software (like Starry night) in his quest to
determine the coincidence of astronimical events and Jesus birth and
crucifixion.

April 4 of 33 AD fits the criteria demanded by
the astronomical data and the historical witness...
...it even
coincides a Lunar Sabbath with a Julian/Gregorian
Saturday...
...but 33 AD does not fit the SDA 2300 day/year
prophetic schema...
...on which their organization finds its
origin, identity and purpose.

I
suppose that because we believe that the Sun and the Moon and the Stars
move throughout the heavens with such God-give precision and that we can
know where they were or will be at any given point in history means that
we will be looked upon as Rabbinical
Literalists.

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12-10-2009

#40

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

I suppose that because we believe
that the Sun and the Moon and the Stars move throughout the heavens
with such God-give precision and that we can know where they were or
will be at any given point in history means that we will be looked
upon as Rabbinical Literalists.

The
SDA problem is that Ellen endorsed it...
...Ellen says that Jesus
rested in Joseph's tomb on a Sabbath...
...and that this Sabbath was
also a Passover.

"At last Jesus was at rest. The long day of shame
and torture was ended. As the last rays of the setting sun ushered in the
Sabbath, the Son of God lay in quietude in Joseph's tomb. His work
completed, His hands folded in peace, He rested through the sacred
hours of the Sabbath day.

"With this scene the day upon
which Jesus rested is forever linked. For "His work is perfect;" and
"whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever." Deut. 32:4; Eccl. 3:14. When
there shall be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the
mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21),
the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at
rest in Joseph's tomb, will still be a day of rest and
rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as "from one Sabbath to
another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship
to God and the Lamb." Ellen White DA Chapter 80

"That was a
never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the
priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the
evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that
the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was
observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it
pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."
Ibid

Elsewhere Ellen endorses 31AD...
...and the Gregorian
Saturday/Sabbath identity.

But you can't have a Sabbath -
Saturday - Passover combination in 31 AD.

If SDA's shift their
crucifixion date to 33AD...
...they then have trouble with the 457BC
origin for the 2300 day/year scheme...
...and 1844 has to become
1846.

Either way the SDA system has created a
paradox...
...which can't be resolved without changing their view of
Ellen's inspiration...
...or by ignoring history, scripture and
astonomical data.

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