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Adventism

Lunar sabbath

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06-15-2009

#1

tall73

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Lunar sabbath

It was suggested in another thread that the
sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one
man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic
write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the
case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have
implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

Last edited by tall73; 06-15-2009 at 05:43
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06-15-2009

#2

Troubleshooter

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22 October 1844...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

...William Miller calculated
22 October 1844 on the basis of a Lunar calendar...
...that also
calculated 'weekly' Sabbaths by reference to the New Moon...
...so this
is a subject at the very heart of Adventist origin and
identity.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-15-2009

#3

tall73

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I may have it totally confused, but if I
understand correctly the Jewish months can have 29 or 30 days. Is that
also the case with the Karaite calendar?

If so then wouldn't that
result in there being more than 6 days between the last sabbath of a month
and the first sabbath of the next month?

How does that then match
the commandment?

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06-15-2009

#4

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I may have it totally confused, but
if I understand correctly the Jewish months can have 29 or 30 days.
Is that also the case with the Karaite calendar?

If so then
wouldn't that result in there being more than 6 days between the
last sabbath of a month and the first sabbath of the next
month?

How does that then match the
commandment?

We live with a Gregorian
calendar so assume the days must follow a continuous seven day
cycle...
...but there is no conflict with the commandment...
...with
six days of work and seventh a Sabbath...
...if the weekly cycle starts
anew each New Moon...
...the occassional extra day is just that 'an
extra day'...
...then the New Moon is sighted and the cycle begins
again.

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06-15-2009

#5

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

We live with a Gregorian calendar so
assume the days must follow a continuous seven day
cycle...
...but there is no conflict with the
commandment...
...with six days of work and seventh a
Sabbath...
...if the weekly cycle starts anew each New
Moon...
...the occassional extra day is just that 'an extra
day'...
...then the New Moon is sighted and the cycle begins
again.

I
did find interesting the notion that the new moon is itself a day of
worship and therefore would not be considered one of the 6 work
days.

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06-15-2009

#6

Troubleshooter

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Curiouser and curiouser...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I did find interesting the notion
that the new moon is itself a day of worship and therefore would not
be considered one of the 6 work
days.

It is also interesting that a
New Moon day was never a Sabbath...
...because it is never a seventh
day...
...and this can only happen in a Lunar calendar...
...because
a New Moon day would float though the days on the
Julian/Gregorian...
...so would occasionally coincide with a 'seventh
day'.

Also, no Sabbath that is given a specific 'day of the month'
reference in the OT...
...ever falls on any day other than day 8, 15,
22, 29.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-16-2009

#7

BrianL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is also interesting that a New
Moon day was never a Sabbath...
...because it is never a seventh
day...
...and this can only happen in a Lunar
calendar...
...because a New Moon day would float though the days
on the Julian/Gregorian...
...so would occasionally coincide with
a 'seventh day'.

Also, no Sabbath that is given a specific
'day of the month' reference in the OT...
...ever falls on any
day other than day 8, 15, 22, 29.

What
about "days" that aren't sabbaths that fall on 8, 15, 22, or 29?

Est 9:15-19 NASB The Jews who were in Susa assembled also on
the fourteenth day of the month Adar and killed three hundred men in
Susa, but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (16) Now the rest
of the Jews who were in the king's provinces assembled, to defend their
lives and rid themselves of their enemies, and kill 75,000 of those who
hated them; but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (17) This
was done on the thirteenth day of the month Adar, and on the fourteenth
day they rested and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (18) But
the Jews who were in Susa assembled on the thirteenth and the fourteenth
of the same month, and they rested on the fifteenth day and made
it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (19) Therefore the Jews of the rural
areas, who live in the rural towns, make the fourteenth day of the month
Adar a holiday for rejoicing and feasting and sending portions of food
to one another.

In Christ,
Brian

__________________
It is the
whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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11-21-2009

#8

Tree of Life ©

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL

What about "days" that aren't sabbaths that fall on 8,
15, 22, or 29?

Est 9:15-19 NASB The Jews who were in Susa assembled
also on the fourteenth day of the month Adar and killed three
hundred men in Susa, but they did not lay their hands on the
plunder. (16) Now the rest of the Jews who were in the king's
provinces assembled, to defend their lives and rid themselves of
their enemies, and kill 75,000 of those who hated them; but they did
not lay their hands on the plunder. (17) This was done on the
thirteenth day of the month Adar, and on the fourteenth day they
rested and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (18) But the
Jews who were in Susa assembled on the thirteenth and the fourteenth
of the same month, and they rested on the fifteenth day and
made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (19) Therefore the Jews of
the rural areas, who live in the rural towns, make the fourteenth
day of the month Adar a holiday for rejoicing and feasting and
sending portions of food to one another.

In Christ,
Brian

Yes Brian,

I agree with
your question, but what makes you certain that either “the fourteenth day”
or “the fifteenth day” as quoted by you from Ester 9:17 and 18 was or was
not a regular weekly Sabbath to begin with? I have a hard time making a
strong case against either the 14th or the 15th being a Sabbath to begin
with based on nothing but that passage. I’d be interested in hearing why
specifically you question, based upon your quoted passage, that the 15th
of that month wasn’t a Sabbath.

On the
other hand, I believe I have found additional passages in the OT in
support of your contention re “ "days" that aren't
sabbaths that fall on 8, 15, 22, or 29...” Perhaps most of the
readers of this thread will not be motivated enough to study deeply enough
into my grounds for this in order to firmly convince themselves, but I
believe there is good evidence to be found in the following
passages:

1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra 7:9 KJV

For upon the
first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon,
and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem,
according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Now, I recognize that some of those that are in favor of the
Lunar Sabbath may not recognize the first day of the month as a Sabbath,
but for those that do: How likely is it that Ezra, the priest, and his
followers would commence a long journey on a Sabbath?

2.
Perhaps some of the following verses will make for some
Berean like Bible students a stronger second argument?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra 10:8-9 KJV

8 And that
whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel
of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be
forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that
had been carried away.
9 Then all the men of
Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem
within three days. It was the ninth month, on the twentieth
day of the month; and all the people sat in the street of the
house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the
great rain.

It is easy to show (Please PM or email me for a link to my
study!) for certain that in the year “Kislev 20,
397 BCE fell on the day beginning at
sunset Sun Dec 3 or Mon Dec 4 (Julian Day 1576757,) 397 BCE. –
Notice: The whole sale divorce action of Ezra occurred on Aviv 1, 396
BCE.”

Without being willing to pursue a deeper study of these
things it may be hard for some to accept without more that the words
“within three days,” as quoted above, pertain not necessarily to a
duration of three days, but definitely to the Third Day of the week.
However, for those willing to accept that – After all wouldn’t it be quite
confusing for a Hebrew speaking person to ever use such consecutive
reckoning in view of the fact of such reckoning being easily mixed up with
the only Hebrew names existing for the days of the week? – we find in
these verses a powerful tool for identifying not only the exact year (397
B.C.) but also the correct king (Artaxerxes II,) corresponding to the
events recorded in the above quoted passage from Ezra 10:8-9. (Re
Artaxerxes II, please cf. SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 3, pp.
369-374.)

For the main argument of this
thread this argument translates to Kislev 20 (i.e. the 20th day of the 9th
month) being a Tuesday (beginning at sunset Monday night.) It follows that
in that particular month and year Sabbath fell out on Kislev 3, 10, 17,
and 24, - as reckoned by Ezra - and not as suggested by the proponents of
Lunar Sabbath keeping.

3.
Here’s a third argument taken
from the Book of Daniel. But again, this one requires a Berean type Bible
student with a real interest in chronology:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel 10:4 KJV

And in the four
and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the
great river, which is Hiddekel;

This argument is building upon, among other things, the
obvious fact that the time references in Daniel 10 are closely associated
in time with Passover, which is a time of fasting, i.e. of eating nothing
that is leavened. This fact brings in the consideration as to why the 24th
day of that month is a day chosen for the events recorded in Daniel 10, or
doesn’t it? To me at least it seems very much in line with what the Bible
teaches re Sabbath keeping and the blessings thereof, to consider the
possibility that this particular day, Abib 24, was a Sabbath and kept as
such by Daniel. In fact, to me this is added confirmation, albeit by no
means the sole support, for the Aviv 24 of Daniel 10 being exactly datable
(Please PM or email me for a link to my study!) to the year 531
B.C.

4.
Brian, this one is especially for you: I’ve shown (Please PM
or email me for a link to my study!) that the original Purim event as
recorded in Esther 9:15-19 did in fact occur in the year 473 B.C. – again
this may require an ardent Berean Bible student... That given, it is not
hard to determine which days of the week that correspond to Adar 14 and
Adar 15 of that year: If you go first to NASA’s Phases of the Moon Table
you’ll find that the astronomical new moon almost certainly corresponding
to the 12th month of Esther 9 is given as “Feb 21 19:16.” To get Jerusalem
time you’ll add 2hrs 21min or to get Iranian time you’ll add 3hrs. It
follows that the visible new moon from that horizon occurred either Feb 22
or Feb 23 and that Adar 1 is reckoned from either Feb 23 or 24 beginning
at sunset on the prior day. Using a reliable Julian Day and Civil Date
Calculator it is then easy to find the correct day of the week for those
dates. I find that Feb 23 and 24, 473 B.C. correspond to Saturday and
Sunday respectively, and that Adar 14 and 15, 473 B.C. correspond to
Friday and Saturday or else Saturday and Sunday, respectively, i.e. while
beginning at sunset on the preceding day and depending upon which day the
new moon crescent was first observed from that horizon. Thus, as you can
see for yourself, it is entirely possible, albeit not certain, that Adar
15 of Esther 9 did in fact turn out on a regular weekly Sabbath in that
year. The 15th was either the 7th or the 1st Day of the week. I would lean
towards the First Day of the week, but not heavily so. . . based upon
NASA’s Phases of the Moon Tables and the late night astronomical new moon
from that horizon (between 9:37 PM and 10:16
PM.)

In
summary

Based on the above referenced
I find good evidence not to subscribe to the Lunar Sabbath argument...
Wait for more... much of which may turn out to be much more easily
digested by most readers of this thread!

Furthermore, subscribing to the Lunar Sabbath argument
destroys any possibility for correlating weekdays and dates of the month
for purposes of helping exactly determine the dates as recorded in the Old
and New Testament. I’ve found said tool to be an extremely reliable,
useful and powerful tool indeed for thus dating a host of events in the
Holy Scriptures.

Peace to all of our
homes and families,

Tree of Life
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11-21-2009

#9

Tree of Life ©

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Was Kislev 24 of Daniel 10 a Sabbath? I find reasons for
that being true...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is also interesting…

Also, no Sabbath that is given a
specific 'day of the month' reference in the
OT...
...ever
falls on any day other than day 8, 15, 22,
29.

Maybe, maybe not,
Troubleshooter,

You may wish to be a true Berean while considering carefully
my prior post in response to Brian’s post . . .

Especially re
Daniel 10!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
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11-23-2009

#10

Troubleshooter

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Hi Tree Of Life, I ran a thread on this
subject at the following address...

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=174603

If
you think there is something I have not covered...
...I would be
delighted to consider it.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-15-2009

#11

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

There's some interesting
material at this site, including some stuff from the Grace Amadon
Collection. Apparently the site was created by a couple of Adventists who
switched to the lunar-Sabbath model.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-15-2009

#12

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

There's some interesting material at
this
site, including some stuff from the Grace Amadon Collection.
Apparently the site was created by a couple of Adventists who
switched to the lunar-Sabbath
model.

Only a person who does not
know the Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar Calendar.

Once
you realize that the Lunar Calendar was initiated as part of the
Exodus...
...it is easy to see that it was just a temporal part of the
ceremonial system...
...built on the Passover/Exodus...
...that was
prophetic of Jesus death and Resurrection...
...and came to an end with
all the other feast, sacrifices.

This is why Paul could say to the
Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are
known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and
months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have
bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

By continuing
the monthly cycles they were denying their fulfillment in the
Gospel.

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-15-2009

#13

Sophia7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Only a person who does not know the
Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar Calendar.

Once you
realize that the Lunar Calendar was initiated as part of the
Exodus...
...it is easy to see that it was just a temporal part
of the ceremonial system...
...built on the
Passover/Exodus...
...that was prophetic of Jesus death and
Resurrection...
...and came to an end with all the other feast,
sacrifices.

This is why Paul could say to the
Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather
are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly
elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye
observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid
of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians
4:9-11

By continuing the monthly cycles they were denying
their fulfillment in the Gospel.

Well,
I don't agree with them; I just find the site interesting in terms of the
ramifications for Adventism.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the
author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured
the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the
throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

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06-15-2009

#14

Troubleshooter

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Passover/Exodus/Sinai and the
Gospel...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Well, I don't agree with them; I
just find the site interesting in terms of the ramifications for
Adventism.

I find the site
interesting too for the same reasons...
...I am just concerned for
those 'weak in faith' who might consider a Lunar Sabbath
necessary...
...I am workng on understanding the Lunar calendar in
relation to Passover/Exodus/Sinai...
...and the role it plays in
prefiguring the Gospel.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-16-2009

#15

peg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Only a person who does not know the
Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar
Calendar.

Of course you are right,
Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead of
worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is supposedly
the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in the 7-day cycle
that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that
makes all the difference!

If,
in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's "rest
day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who choose to
worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to exist.

That this has
nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel of Salvation is what We
Formers have said all along,
But it is not what SDAs have
strenuously argued.

Pegg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Once you realize that the Lunar
Calendar was initiated as part of the Exodus...
...it is easy to
see that it was just a temporal part of the ceremonial
system...
...built on the Passover/Exodus...
...that was
prophetic of Jesus death and Resurrection...
...and came to an
end with all the other feast, sacrifices.

This is why Paul
could say to the Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known
God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and
beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am
afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
Galatians 4:9-11

By continuing the monthly cycles they were
denying their fulfillment in the Gospel.

__________________
Then...Jesus asked them a
question: "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son
is He?"
Matt. 22:41-42

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06-16-2009

#16

Troubleshooter

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The Gospel in the Lunar Calendar...

Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Of course you are right,
Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead
of worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is
supposedly the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in
the 7-day cycle that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that makes all the difference!

If,
in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's
"rest day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who
choose to worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to
exist.

That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel
of Salvation is what We Formers have said all along,
But
it is not what SDAs have strenuously
argued.

What I am discovering Pegg is
that...
...while the current Sabbath in Adventism is about
law...
...the Lunar Sabbath is calculated with reference to the
Passover...
...so is itself an illustration of the Gospel...
...as
was the entire paraphernalia of the Sanctuary system...
...that has met
its fulfillment in the death and resurrection of Christ.

My concern
is that current Sabbatarians would see a need to switch...
...as those
at 4 Angels Publications have done...
...rather than see the Gospel in
it.

Every Lunar Sabbath discussion I have read has seen a need to
'keep' or 'observe' the Sabbath...
...according to the Lunar
calculations as the 'true' alternative to a Saturday/Sabbath or Sunday
observance...
...not one has seen the Gospel in it...
...but the
Lunar calendar is as much a prophetic illustration of Jesus death and
resurrection...
...as is the slaughter of a lamb or a priest applying
blood to the mercy seat.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-16-2009 at 02:45
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06-16-2009

#17

BrianL

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Location: Texas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Of course you are right,
Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead
of worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is
supposedly the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in
the 7-day cycle that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that makes all the difference!

If,
in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's
"rest day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who
choose to worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to
exist.

That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel
of Salvation is what We Formers have said all along,
But
it is not what SDAs have strenuously argued.

Pegg

Rasell
came real close to admitting that they can't, IN FACT, know they are
worshiping on the "True Sabbath" here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasell

The changes in the Calendar never
altered the weekly cycle, there is no record of that being changed.
In any case when the Manna was given, and none on the
Sabbath the people had 40 years of Sabbath keeping and the Jews
have kept that cycle unbroken until
today.

In Christ,
Brian

__________________
It is the
whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended
in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain
promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It
is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt.
5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there
is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception. – Tom Wells

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06-15-2009

#18

JDP

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canada

Posts: 427

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

In reading Troubleshooters comments on the lunar
timing of the Sabbath, I thought back to the creation week and the
timing of the events discussed from time to time.

I made a
document to record some brainstorming questions that popped into my
head at the time. All this isn’t to prove anything as it seems
irrelevant to a New Covenant believer’s choice of worship times. It is
to see if there were any unasked questions and to further examine the
binding nature of the claims of Sabbatarian’s. It does add a new (for
me) dimension to the references about observing the new moons and
Sabbaths like in Isaiah 66:23 and Colossians 2:16.

Is Saturday, as the seventh day of our week, the actual,
sequential inheritance of the original 7th day of creation?

Does it matter if it is or isn’t?

What “phase” was the moon in when it was created on the 4th
day?

Was it a new moon or a full moon? Was it in some other
phase?

Quote:

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in
the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the
night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for
days, and years:

How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the
months?

How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the
Sabbath?

From the reading I’ve found, it seems that one view is to have
been from the first day after observing the first crescent of the
new moon. Are there other proposed observatory sources? How would
you determine the validity of the different methods?

How would they jive with the creation of the moon on the fourth
day and the ‘God’s rest’ on the 7th day?

If one is to observe a lunar Sabbath, what location is used for
observation of the determining lunar signal? The person’s location?
The land of Israel?

Does this lunar signal in the land of Israel sync in days with
the equivalent lunar signal at other latitudes giving allowance for
longitudinal time differences? Would people be observing the same
day?

EG. Will the lunar signal at the Israeli latitude occur the same
day as the lunar signal in northern Sweden or South Africa?

Will the lunar signal occur the same day in Sweden and South
Africa?

Does the moon rise and set even in the winter arctic darkness or
the continuous light of the summer arctic?

Were any of the potential differences in observed lunar times at
different latitudes in existence from the beginning or were they
"created" at a later date? EG. the tilt of the earth and the
accompanying effects?

Some if not all of these questions might be too off the wall for
rational discussion but they might trigger some others that will be
beneficial.

__________________

God will not forsake you: Even Moses was a basket case
at one time........Philippians 1:6 (paraphrased)

Religion is for
those who are afraid of Hell - Jesus Christ is for those who have already
been thru it!

THICKNESS CANNOT BE
MEASURED!

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06-15-2009

#19

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JDP

[INDENT][INDENT]
In reading
Troubleshooters comments on the lunar timing of the Sabbath, I
thought back to the creation week and the timing of the events
discussed from time to time.

I made a document to record
some brainstorming questions that popped into my head at the time.
All this isn’t to prove anything as it seems irrelevant to a New
Covenant believer’s choice of worship times. It is to see if there
were any unasked questions and to further examine the binding nature
of the claims of Sabbatarian’s. It does add a new (for me) dimension
to the references about observing the new moons and Sabbaths like in
Isaiah 66:23 and Colossians
2:16.

Quote:

[*]Is Saturday, as the seventh day of our week, the
actual, sequential inheritance of the original 7th day of creation?

Unlikely and impossible to
prove.

Quote:

[*]Does it matter if it is or isn’t?

No

Quote:

[*]What “phase” was the moon in when it was created on
the 4th day?
[*]Was it a new moon or a full moon? Was it in some
other phase?

Bible doesn't
say.

Quote:

[*]How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine
the months?

Year started with the first
New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...this was the timing of the
first Passover...
...and by doing this annually the Lunar Cycle was
brought back into sync each Solar year.

Quote:

[*]How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine
the Sabbath?
[*]From the reading I’ve found, it seems that one
view is to have been from the first day after observing the first
crescent of the new moon. Are there other proposed observatory
sources? How would you determine the validity of the different
methods?

That is the pattern as I read
it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus six days...
...and
then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath until the end of the
month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon and repeated each
month.

Quote:

[*]How would they jive with the creation of the moon on
the fourth day and the ‘God’s rest’ on the 7th day?

Six days God worked and then a
rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law that was fulfilled in the
New Creation...
...that began with Jesus resurrection...
...that's
why Jesus died on a preparation day and rested on the Sabbath...
...the
pattern of creation week is embedded into Israel's times...
...and the
New Creation began.

Quote:

[*]If one is to observe a lunar Sabbath, what location is
used for observation of the determining lunar signal? The person’s
location? The land of Israel?

[*]Does this lunar signal in
the land of Israel sync in days with the equivalent lunar signal at
other latitudes giving allowance for longitudinal time differences?
Would people be observing the same day?

[*]EG. Will the lunar
signal at the Israeli latitude occur the same day as the lunar
signal in northern Sweden or South Africa?

[*]Will the lunar
signal occur the same day in Sweden and South Africa?

[*]Does
the moon rise and set even in the winter arctic darkness or the
continuous light of the summer arctic?

[*]Were any of the
potential differences in observed lunar times at different latitudes
in existence from the beginning or were they "created" at a later
date? EG. the tilt of the earth and the accompanying
effects?

[*]Some if not all of these questions might be
too off the wall for rational discussion but they might trigger some
others that will be beneficial.

None of
this needs contemplation...
...it worked in a local setting in and
around Israel...
...and does not need to be considered globally
now...
...because the purpose of it...like sacrifices...has met its
fulfillment.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

Last edited by Troubleshooter; 06-15-2009 at 08:39
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06-16-2009

#20

JDP

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Location: Canada

Posts: 427

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Unlikely and impossible to
prove.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

No

No
matter because the old covenant has passed away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Bible doesn't
say.

It would be wrong to assume a
starting point not stated in scripture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Year started with the first New Moon
following the Barley Harvest...
...this was the timing of the
first Passover...
...and by doing this annually the Lunar Cycle
was brought back into sync each Solar
year.

Even the 7th day observed today
is not in sync with the barley harvest?

Even the Jew's do not
observe based on the barley harvest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That is the pattern as I read
it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus six
days...
...and then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath until
the end of the month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon and
repeated each month.

The beginning
point is continuously reset??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Six days God worked and then a
rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law that was fulfilled
in the New Creation...
...that began with Jesus
resurrection...
...that's why Jesus died on a preparation day and
rested on the Sabbath...
...the pattern of creation week is
embedded into Israel's times...
...and the New Creation
began.

Hence the reference to SHADOWS
like in Colossians!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

None of this needs
contemplation...
...it worked in a local setting in and around
Israel...
...and does not need to be considered globally
now...
...because the purpose of it...like sacrifices...has met
its fulfillment.

Only
mentioned because of the 'Sabbath on a round world' discussions we have
seen on here in the past.

__________________

God will not forsake you: Even Moses was a basket case
at one time........Philippians 1:6 (paraphrased)

Religion is for
those who are afraid of Hell - Jesus Christ is for those who have already
been thru it!

THICKNESS CANNOT BE
MEASURED!

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06-16-2009

#21

Troubleshooter

Super Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Year started with
the first New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...this was
the timing of the first Passover...
...and by doing this annually
the Lunar Cycle was brought back into sync each Solar year.

Quote:

Even the 7th day observed today is not in sync with
the barley harvest?

Even the Jew's do not observe based
on the barley harvest?

Right,
Rabbinic Jews developed a standardized calendar system like the
Julian/Gregorian...
...that has a seven day weekly cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
That is the
pattern as I read it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus
six days...
...and then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath
until the end of the month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon
and repeated each month.

Quote:

The beginning point is continuously reset??

That's
right, the succession of months begin again each year...
...and the
succession of Sabbaths begin again with each New Moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Six days God
worked and then a rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law
that was fulfilled in the New Creation...
...that began with
Jesus resurrection...
...that's why Jesus died on a preparation
day and rested on the Sabbath...
...the pattern of creation week
is embedded into Israel's times...
...and the New Creation began.

Quote:

Hence the reference to SHADOWS like in
Colossians!!!!

Yes!...they
are a shadow of things that were to come.

"Therefore
do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to
a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality,
however, is found in Christ." Colossians 2:16-17

Christ was the
reality of the annual feasts, New Moon/Sabbaths.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world
you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-29-2009

#22

LastBattleCry

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 144

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

www lunarsabbath
.info

The most complete, and free literature site I know of.

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06-29-2009

#23

pythons

Forum Member

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Seattle

Posts: 416

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

This is all new to me but I
did do some math on what is believed to be the first three months
subsequent to the Exodus of Egypt and here are my
figures,

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the
land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of
months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus
12,1

God said this to Moses while the Children were still
in Eqypt. If you have a Strong's please look up the Hebrew word for
"month", it's H2320 (Chodesh) which the only meaning is "New Moon" or by
implication a month or monthly "new moon".

Now it starts to get
interesting.

"And Moses wrote their goings out according to
their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their
journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in
the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow
after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in
the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33, 1-3

Now,
counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day"
of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on
the morrow" or the next day after Passover.

Six days
shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy
convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in
all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy
convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth
day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the
fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the
LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall
have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye
shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the
seventhLev 23, 1-8

Here is the simple math,

New
Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day
9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13, Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath
Day)

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been
identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of
Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New
Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God
commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the
first month then to kill it.

Here is what the Bible says about the
setting of "time".

The high hills are a refuge for the wild
goats; and the rocks for the conies. He appointed the moon for seasons:
the sun knoweth his going down. Ps 104,18

If you go
back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by
default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as
also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of
the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New
Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th
day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is
the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out
identical.

We know that the New Moon day is not counted as being
one of or part of the 6 working days because of Eze 46, 1

Thus
saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the
east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be
opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

On
the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the
Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the
15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see
if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs
Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on
the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow
into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started
to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day
(2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of
Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas
the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there
will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out
the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on
the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New
Moon. That's two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical
days of the same Lunar Calendar.

I won't bore you with the 3rd
detailed month however from my reading it is as exact as the last two. Is
there ever three months in a row in the Gregorian Calendar where the
Sabbath falls on the exact same days? Of course not, because the Gregorian
is a solar Calendar and does not count or start from the New Moon.

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06-29-2009

#24

Troubleshooter

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Location: Australia

Posts: 4,580

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

This is all new to me but I did do
some math on what is believed to be the first three months
subsequent to the Exodus of Egypt and here are my
figures,

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in
the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the
beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to
you. Exodus 12,1

God said this to Moses while
the Children were still in Eqypt. If you have a Strong's please look
up the Hebrew word for "month", it's H2320 (Chodesh) which the only
meaning is "New Moon" or by implication a month or monthly "new
moon".

Now it starts to get interesting.

"And Moses
wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the
commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to
their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month,
on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the
passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the
sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33,
1-3

Now, counting from the "New Moon", Passover the
14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture
the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day
after Passover.

Six days shall work be done:
but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye
shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your
dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations,
which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day
of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the
fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first
day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD
seven days: in the seventhLev 23, 1-8

Here is the
simple math,

New Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4,
Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13,
Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath Day)

Day 1 (New
Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut
16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night"
the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the
first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded
the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the
first month then to kill it.

Here is what the Bible says
about the setting of "time".

The high hills are a refuge
for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies. He appointed the
moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. Ps
104,18

If you go back and look at the "simple math"
you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting
back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be
the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the
first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the
Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can
identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the
first Biblical month. The second month is laid out
identical.

We know that the New Moon day is not counted as
being one of or part of the 6 working days because of Eze 46,
1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court
that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but
on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it
shall be opened.

On the 15th Day of the Second
month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses.
Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will
rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will
walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses
what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on
the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail
to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning
manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day
of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna),
19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day
(6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much
manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day
is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from
the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd
and 29th day from the New Moon. That's
two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the
same Lunar Calendar.

I won't bore you with the 3rd detailed
month however from my reading it is as exact as the last two. Is
there ever three months in a row in the Gregorian Calendar where the
Sabbath falls on the exact same days? Of course not, because the
Gregorian is a solar Calendar and does not count or start from the
New Moon.

Excellent
summary.

If this pattern is then extended through to Passion
week...
...Jesus could have been crucified in any year Pontius Pilate
was Roman procurator of Judea 26 AD through 36 AD.

This is the
reasoning William Miller used to establish the crucifixion in 31
AD...
...so that the 2300 day/years terminated 22 October
1844...
...his calculations depended on the lunar Sabbath...
...but
strangely SDA's later adopted a weekly Sabbath dependant on the solar
Gregorian calendar...
...and then condemn the RC's for changing the
day...sad eh?

__________________
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you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John
16:33 -

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06-29-2009

#25

pythons

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Location: Seattle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Excellent summary.

If this
pattern is then extended through to Passion week...
...Jesus
could have been crucified in any year Pontius Pilate was Roman
procurator of Judea 26 AD through 36 AD.

This is the
reasoning William Miller used to establish the crucifixion in 31
AD...
...so that the 2300 day/years terminated 22 October
1844...
...his calculations depended on the lunar
Sabbath...
...but strangely SDA's later adopted a weekly Sabbath
dependant on the solar Gregorian calendar...
...and then condemn
the RC's for changing the day...sad eh?

I
just checked the math again and I'm certain that the first three months of
the Exodus all had the Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd
part to me is that the New Moon day does not count as one of the six
working days but that is how the math stacks up.

It adds a whole
new meaning to the Sabbath day being caused or brought about by the
elements,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians

But now, after that ye have known
God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and
beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ye observe days, and months, and
times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have
bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Of
course being Catholic I firmly believe God junked the majority of the Old
Covenant signs when He completed them. I would be that this would cause a
big mess with SDA theology given there is clear BIblical proof that they
are not keeping the same Sabbath and God delivered to Moses. I want to
thank animal or whoever it was that brought this up. Never even thought of
it previously.

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06-29-2009

#26

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I just checked the math again and
I'm certain that the first three months of the Exodus all had the
Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd part to me is that
the New Moon day does not count as one of the six working days but
that is how the math stacks up.

It adds a whole new meaning
to the Sabbath day being caused or brought about by the
elements,

Of course being Catholic I firmly believe God
junked the majority of the Old Covenant signs when He completed
them. I would be that this would cause a big mess with SDA theology
given there is clear BIblical proof that they are not keeping the
same Sabbath and God delivered to Moses. I want to thank animal or
whoever it was that brought this up. Never even thought of it
previously.

I came across it while
studying why Adventists prefer 31 AD for the crucifixion.

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06-29-2009

#27

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I just checked the math again and
I'm certain that the first three months of the Exodus all had the
Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd part to me is that
the New Moon day does not count as one of the six working days but
that is how the math stacks
up.

Except there was no sabbath
given until after the 15th day of the second month where the sabbath was
first given to Israel in Ex. 16.

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06-29-2009

#28

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

Except there was no sabbath given
until after the 15th day of the second month where the sabbath was
first given to Israel in Ex.
16.

Agreed, I counted backwards 7
days from the 15th of the month to determine where they would have fallen.
I'm certain counting forward from the 15th pinpoints the subsequent
Sabbaths within the Lunar month.

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06-29-2009

#29

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Agreed, I counted backwards 7 days
from the 15th of the month to determine where they would have
fallen. I'm certain counting forward from the 15th pinpoints the
subsequent Sabbaths within the Lunar
month.

Yes, it might. What would be
helpful is pinpointing the specific dates of sabbaths in three
consecuitive months where the dates are actually given and it is made
clear it is a sabbath. But I am not sure if any text or series of texts
gives the dates for that many consecutive sabbaths.

The closest
thing to that would be simply to show that any specific date mentioned for
a sabbath fits into one of those of the lunar sabbaths--which I have seen
that claim made.

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06-29-2009

#30

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

Yes, it might. What would be helpful
is pinpointing the specific dates of sabbaths in three consecuitive
months where the dates are actually given and it is made clear it is
a sabbath. But I am not sure if any text or series of texts gives
the dates for that many consecutive sabbaths.

The closest
thing to that would be simply to show that any specific date
mentioned for a sabbath fits into one of those of the lunar
sabbaths--which I have seen that claim
made.

Unless God selected a Sabbath
out of the thin air, counting back from the 15th demonstrates where they
would have fallen within the month and obviously counting forward
established where the following Sabbaths would be. The Sabbaths starting
from the manna certainly align throughout that month and they show up in
the third month. One thing is certain, SDA's and other Sabbath related
denominations hype that the Sabbath existed since the garden of Eden - and
specifically for SDA's troubleshooter's point appears to be right on the
money in that 1844 stands on the lunar Sabbath. If they reject the Lunar
Sabbath 1844 falls flat on it's face and if they keep 1844 they indeed
appear to be worshipping on the wrong day.

Do you reject that the
Lunar Calendar was what was used?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Jewish Ency, page
410

1. Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh
Hodesh) both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The
New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally WAS, dependent on the
lunar cycle

Last edited by pythons; 06-29-2009 at 07:20
AM..

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06-29-2009

#31

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Unless God selected a Sabbath out of
the thin air, counting back from the 15th demonstrates where they
would have fallen within the month and obviously counting forward
established where the following Sabbaths would be. The Sabbaths
starting from the manna certainly align throughout that month and
they show up in the third month. One thing is certain, SDA's and
other Sabbath related denominations hype that the Sabbath existed
since the garden of Eden - and specifically for SDA's
troubleshooter's point appears to be right on the money in that 1844
stands on the lunar Sabbath. If they reject the Lunar Sabbath 1844
falls flat on it's face and if they keep 1844 they indeed appear to
be worshipping on the wrong day.

Do you reject that the Lunar
Calendar was what was used?

First
things first. Where is the quote indicating the date of the sabbath in the
third month? I am not aware of one. Maybe there is one.

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06-29-2009

#32

Troubleshooter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

First things first. Where is the
quote indicating the date of the sabbath in the third month? I am
not aware of one. Maybe there is
one.

See article 'Biblical Proof for
the Lunar Sabbath'

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/BiblicalProofLUNARSabbath.pdf

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06-29-2009

#33

tall73

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

See article 'Biblical Proof for the
Lunar Sabbath'

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/BiblicalProofLUNARSabbath.pdf

I
was just reading something similar.

But are you saying the article
contains a reference to a specific sabbath date in the third month of that
same year?

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06-29-2009

#34

Troubleshooter

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Three/Four Months in a row.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I was just reading something
similar.

But are you saying the article contains a reference
to a specific sabbath date in the third month of that same
year?

The following article certainly
does...
'Three Months in a Row - The Exodus, the Manna & the
Mountain' - Kerrie L. French

http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/pdfs/ThreeMonthsInARow_Exodus-Manna-Mountain.pdf

I
can't endorse all of it but makes a case for the pattern three months in a
row.

The following link lists four months in a row.
http://lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page6.html

I am still
working through these issues to verify their claims...
...it is
certainly very interesting.

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11-23-2009

#35

Tree of Life ©

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Re the “Pentecost… 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath” Argument

- that is
being Used in Support of the Lunar Sabbath
Argument

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The following article certainly
does...
'Three
Months in a Row - The Exodus, the Manna & the Mountain' - Kerrie
L. French

thecreatorscalendar.com/pdfs/ThreeMonthsInARow_Exodus-Manna-Mountain.pdf

I can't endorse all of it but makes a
case for the pattern three months in a
row.

The
following link lists four months in a row.
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page6.html

I am still working through these
issues to verify their claims...
...it is certainly very
interesting.

Dear Troubleshooter,

Thanks for your interesting and valuable references! Perhaps
the following will add value to your pursuit of “working
through these issues to verify their
claims...?”

Some
things, that, upon superficial consideration, may seem obviously true, may
turn out to be, upon more careful consideration, obviously
false…

Consider the claims of the
author of lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html. He is making a number of claims
that upon superficial consideration, may seem obviously true, is he
not?

Yet, are those claims valid?
Consider carefully these questions:

1.
What’s the typical speed of an average sail boat
- if not somewhere between 3-10 knots depending on the make and on the
winds etc.?

2. How many hours per 24 hour day is a sail boat upon the open
sea traveling while on a long journey from one place to another – if not
24 hours?

3. How far is a ship traveling per day per the above – if not
83-276 miles?

4. How fast does a ship have to travel in order to gain 125
miles/day – if not 4.5 knots?

5.
Isn’t it true that a most typical speed for an
average sailing ship sailing in favorable winds is 4.5 knots or
better?

6. Doesn’t the above kill any strength within this part of said
author’s argument?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

We can actually show, after narrowing things down, that
with the traditional Pentecost count, Paul only had 8 travel
days in which to travel 1000 mi., which would
be an average of 125 mi. per day . .
.

This
kills the traditional Pentecost theory . .
.

7. Consider carefully Acts 20:6!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 20:6

Acts 20:6 KJV And
we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and
came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

Acts 20:6
TLT And we sailed away from
Philippi after the First day of the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, and came unto
them to Troas in five days [or else “within Day Five of the
week”]; where we abode Day Seven [of the week,
Aviv 21, 44 CE [Saturday May 9, 44
CE.]

You may not be previously aware of the Tree
of Life Time © translation (modifying the KJV,) which
translation/modification is based upon Textus Receptus, or upon even more
original manuscripts where such are available, and also upon the very best
available chronological data from astronomy and historical primary sources
available, but I have found very good reasons for believing that the TLT
version of the Holy Scriptures is a more correct translation than is KJV
re the particulars of this quoted passage.

That given, how long did it take Paul and
his party to sail from Philippi to Troas? Were they sailing for “five
days” or could it be that that trip took them no more than 4 days or
possibly much less, even just a day or two, to accomplish that
distance?

What
does this do to this portion of said author’s
arguments?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

This kills
the traditional Pentecost theory because they only traveled
150 mi. in five days from Philippi to
Troas, and this by ship, which is an average of 30 mi. per
day.

8. Consider carefully these words of said
author:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

…After this, the Scripture shows about seven more
examples where they were still only averaging about 30 mi. per day
for the first 500 mi.
This can be verified by reading Acts 20:13 through 17
and measuring the distance between these cities with the map in the
back of most Bibles and comparing the days with the
mile.

Then please compare that with the
following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/TheApostolicChurchCouncilIn44CE.htm#Acts20v11
. . .

Acts 20:15 TLT And
we sailed thence,, and came the next
day [Sunday at
sunset] over against Chios; and the next day [Monday at sunset]
we arrived at Samos, and tarried at Trogyllium; and the next
day [Tuesday at
sunset] we came to Miletus.

Acts 21:1 KJV And it came to pass, that after we were gotten from
them, and had launched, we came with a straight course unto Coos,
and the day following unto Rhodes,
and from thence unto Patara:

Acts 21:4 TLTAnd finding disciples we tarried there Day Seven [Seventh-Day Sabbath:
Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. May 15/16, 44 CE] Those told Paul, through the Spirit, that he should not go up to
Jerusalem.

Dating each
of these events:

1.
Day One accomplishment: 200 km. Arrived
“over against Chios” at the beginning of the Second Day of the week
Aviv 23, 44 CE [sunset Sunday May 10, 44 CE;]

2. Day Two accomplishment:
120 km. “Arrived at Samos” at the beginning of the Third Day of the
week Aviv 24, 44 CE [sunset Monday May 11, 44
CE;]

3. Day Three accomplishment: 30 km. “Came to Miletus” at
the beginning of the Fourth Day of the week Aviv 25, 44 CE [sunset Tuesday May 12, 44 CE.]

4. Day
Four accomplishment: 190 km. After
meeting with the brethren from Ephesus at Miletus, “came… unto
Rhodes” at the beginning of the Fifth Day of the week Aviv
26, 44 CE [sunset Wednesday May 13, 44
CE.]

5. Day Five
accomplishment: 100 km (for starters) to Patara.

6. Day Five through Day Seven accomplishment: 720km. From Rhodes… “sailed into
Syria, and landed at Tyre…” “finding disciples we tarried there Day
Seven” of the week. Aviv 26-28, 44 CE [Sunset
Wednesday - Saturday May 13-16, 44
CE.]

What does that do to this portion of said author’s argument .
. . and to most or all of that which follows on the same web page of
his?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

This gives us a scriptural precedence of how many miles
they average per day by ship, which was the fastest means of travel
of that day.

And more specifically, what does it do to the following claim
of said author?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

The day that
they called a Chag/Pentecost… was 50 days AFTER the 7th
Sabbath…

And, isn’t it true that this last claim is being used by said
author and by others in support of all Sabbaths in four consecutive months
in the OT being “Lunar Sabbaths” falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th
of each month?

Consider it! Selah!

Shalom,

Tree of Life
©

Last edited by Tree of Life ©; 11-23-2009 at 11:13
AM..

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06-29-2009

#36

Moshiac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread
that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I
have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have
seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am
convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath
keeping.

As a Jew this type of stuff
just makes me ill and laugh at the same
time.

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06-29-2009

#37

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

As a Jew this type of stuff just
makes me ill and laugh at the same
time.

Could you lend us a hand here
then? As a Jew your perspective on the Universal Jewish Ency would
certainly carry some weight. There were other quotes aside from the one I
posted from other historical sources that said the same thing.

As I
said the other day this concept is totally new to me and I could be wrong
in thinking the eary Hebrews worked off a Lunar Calendar, it seems to line
up from my reading but I am no expert on this matter.

Thanks for
any help you can give us.

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06-29-2009

#38

Moshiac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Could you lend us a hand here then?
As a Jew your perspective on the Universal Jewish Ency would
certainly carry some weight. There were other quotes aside from the
one I posted from other historical sources that said the same
thing.

As I said the other day this concept is totally new to
me and I could be wrong in thinking the eary Hebrews worked off a
Lunar Calendar, it seems to line up from my reading but I am no
expert on this matter.

Thanks for any help you can give
us.

Jewish calender is both lunar and
solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the Karaites.
The weekly cycle is not affected by the moon. A New moon sometimes
coincides with a 7th day sabbath. The new moon however does not determine
when the 7th day sabbath is. The Jewish calender was fixed by means of an
algorithm formualted by Hillel the second circa 2nd century CE. Prior to
this the new moon was determined by sighting of the new moon being
reported to the Sanhedrin. Other factors affected for example the timing
of Passover which is a spring festival. It was common for passover to be
put off for a month if the Barley harvest had not actually ripened
sufficiently. The Jewish calender is so unique that it repeats itself
every 180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly with the solar year! The
Christian calender was wrong for centuries as the names of some of the
months testify Sept(7)ember, Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when we now
know them now as the 9th, 10th and 12th months respectively. In this
respect a year is a year when it is to be understood that both the lunar
and solar aspects of the calender align themselves over a four year
period. The 1260 day period in Revelation is typically divided by 360
(lunar year) to alow a correlation with half the final week of Daniel's
Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one however knows that 3.5 years is just
exactly what it is in terms of days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 =
1277 but not 1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

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06-29-2009

#39

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Jewish calender is both lunar and
solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the
Karaites. The weekly cycle is not affected by the moon. A New moon
sometimes coincides with a 7th day sabbath. The new moon however
does not determine when the 7th day sabbath is. The Jewish calender
was fixed by means of an algorithm formualted by Hillel the second
circa 2nd century CE. Prior to this the new moon was determined by
sighting of the new moon being reported to the Sanhedrin. Other
factors affected for example the timing of Passover which is a
spring festival. It was common for passover to be put off for a
month if the Barley harvest had not actually ripened sufficiently.
The Jewish calender is so unique that it repeats itself every
180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly with the solar year! The
Christian calender was wrong for centuries as the names of some of
the months testify Sept(7)ember, Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when
we now know them now as the 9th, 10th and 12th months respectively.
In this respect a year is a year when it is to be understood that
both the lunar and solar aspects of the calender align themselves
over a four year period. The 1260 day period in Revelation is
typically divided by 360 (lunar year) to alow a correlation with
half the final week of Daniel's Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one
however knows that 3.5 years is just exactly what it is in terms of
days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 = 1277 but not
1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

I
appreciate your posting this. It says a lot with few words so I will dig
into it.

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06-30-2009

#40

pythons

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Jewish calender is both lunar and
solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the
Karaites. The weekly cycle is not affected by the
moon.

The "weekly" cycle now
is seven days, I'm not sure anyone would dispute that, nor would anyone
suggest that the current cycle of perpetual weeks of 7 days is
affected by the Moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

A New moon sometimes coincides with
a 7th day sabbath.

Indeed it does,
with the Gregorian Calendar. It does not appear to coincide with
the Sabbath in a lunar month,

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2 Kings 4,23

And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go
to him to day? it is neither new moon,
NOR sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isiah 1,13

Bring no more vain oblations;
incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I
cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ps 81,3

Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the
time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

For this was
a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of
Jacob.

I'm not sure if you would
accept Strong's, it renders H 3677 as "Fullness or the full moon, i.e.
it's festival (time appointed).

If I'm correct, the
feasts of the Passover and the Tents WERE celebrated on the 14-15th days of the first
and seventh months respectively.

Another point worth mentioning is
that of the Genesis debacle,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 7,11

In the six hundredth year of
Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the
month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep
broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Minus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 8,14

And it came to pass in the six
hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the
month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed
the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the
ground was dry.

And in the second month, on the seven and
twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

= 12 months AND 11
days , which is in fact the exact number required to equate a year of
LUNAR months so that it equals with a solar year of 365 days. 354
(1), 355 (2), 356 (3), 357 (4), 358 (5),
359 (6), 360 (7), 361 (8), 362 (9), 363
(10) & 365 (11).

If the flood lasted a solar year why
didn't Moses just say so instead of going through the work of detailing it
out IN A LUNAR YEAR?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The new moon however does not
determine when the 7th day sabbath
is.

Agreed, "now" it certainly
does not determine it. If I understand the argument correctly, it
maintains the new moon previously determined when the 7 day Sabbath
"was" because it was the new moon that initiated the "new month". I'm not
Jewish so the best I can do is read what Jews (I'm assuming it was Jew's)
wrote. Like the following which I can't confirm is real, perhaps you
could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Jewish Encyclopedia,
page 410

Sabbath AND New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), BOTH periodically recurring in the course of
the year. The New Moon IS STILL and the Sabbath ORIGINALLY WAS dependent upon the LUNAR
CYCLE. Originally the New Moon was celebrated IN THE SAME
WAY AS THE SABBATH; gradually it became less important while the
Sabbath became more and more a day of
religion.....

Unless the UJE is bunk
and not true it explicitly states that the Hebrew Sabbath WAS
dependent on a lunar cycle. So, unless this source turns out to be a
fabrication of fact you certainly are bound to agree that the Sabbath was
(used to be) dependent upon the Moon. As in the Sabbath was a baby
dependent on it's Mother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The Jewish calender was fixed by
means of an algorithm formualted by Hillel the second circa 2nd
century CE. Prior to this the new moon was determined by sighting of
the new moon being reported to the
Sanhedrin.

That is what the argument
that animal and troubleshooter brought up wasn't it? The Gregorian
Calendar adopted the Jewish Sabbath or more properly, the Sabbath was
given up for adoption and founds it's place in the recurring weekly cycle
of the 7 days inside the Gregorian Calendar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Other factors affected for example
the timing of Passover which is a spring festival. It was common for
passover to be put off for a month if the Barley harvest had not
actually ripened sufficiently. The Jewish calender is so unique that
it repeats itself every 180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly
with the solar year!

Do you have
access to the algorithm used to do this? I couldn't find it mentioned on
the net?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The Christian calender was wrong for
centuries as the names of some of the months testify Sept(7)ember,
Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when we now know them now as the 9th,
10th and 12th months respectively. In this respect a year is a year
when it is to be understood that both the lunar and solar aspects of
the calender align themselves over a four year
period.

What centuries was the
Christian Calendar wrong? Are you talking about the Lunar calendar
used by the Church for a time or the Gregorian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The 1260 day period in Revelation is
typically divided by 360 (lunar year) to alow a correlation with
half the final week of Daniel's Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one
however knows that 3.5 years is just exactly what it is in terms of
days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 = 1277 but not
1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

I'm
seeing a period of time that equals 3 1/2 solars years described as lunar
time. Isn't that exactly what Gen did?

I appreciate you being
here to answer some of these questions. I'll eventually "get it".

pythons

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